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Bridged Mono vs Bi-Amp

I have a pro4 runnin a SVT410hlf and my drummer and guitar player are kicking my ass. I have never ran bi-amp, but i heard its better to have 1 cab that pushes bridged, at least there's more power. The Epifani UL610 can handle 1500w & its 80 lbs. I was curious if anyone has this cab? I can't find any reviews about it. But that would give me all the push i need. I have to back off the low end on my current setup to accommodate for volume or I'll blow speakers. Anyone had any luck with a 15" and a 410 cab setup in bi-amp?? The built-in crossover would be nice for that. Any advice / wisdom / rubbish would be much appreciated.

Cheers
 
When you hook two power amps together for extra juice, basically. It doubles minimum ohms and wattage, usually. So bridge a 500w @ 4 ohm amp to 500w @ 4 ohm, you get 1000w @ 8 ohm, generally speaking.

Not always safe to do so and it's generally only done with stereo/parallel mono heads designed for the purpose (like the SVT4-Pro, PA power amps, the BX1200, etc).
 
It is totally ridiculous! I mean i can hear my cab but I do alot of runs that get barried. Generally we don't play The Staples Center so the sound is sometimes anus. It sucks when you rip a show and people can't hear it. I just want it to cut, I think I am going to get a beefier cab but i wanted to get some input before I lay the cash.

Sartori - Bridged means the 2 amps in the pro4 are both powering the cab. That head actually has 2 separate amps in it. I don't know anyone that does the bi-amp.
 
check out the ohms faq in the amps faq sticky for info on bridging.

i'd bridge. biamping only works well with cabs specifically designed for it which commercial bass cabs are not. it will not get you louder.

otherwise you could use two cabs and run them both full range which should get you nice and loud
 
My guitar player plays an Orange with EXTREME high end. I have messed with the EQ and all the little boosts buttons on the Pro4 but bottom line is i cant get the tone i want at the volume i need. Smells like an upgrade. I'm kinda torn between Epifani and Aguilar right now just because they have more power handeling... I love the Ampeg sound, but Im not sure the 610hlf would be enough power... its just another 100w.

rpsands - you ever play a 610hlf? does that ****er rip the house down er what? There is many people ditching the 8x10 for smaller cabs because of the loading. I can pick up one of those for like $400 - $450 but i dont want to end up in a wheel chair either...
 
The 610 is loud and sounds great but I don't believe in pushing them terribly hard due to the way they are wired (two of the speakers get a lot more wattage, leading to blown speakers if you beat it up). It will not put out the low end of a 410HLF either.

Edit: I am fixing this post. Turns out I am wrong about the wiring of the 6x10 and it uses 6 ohm drivers. I hope that is correct but I do not know for sure that it is -- I know a LOT of people have blown the bottom two drivers in the 6x10HLF and I suspect there is a reason for that - possibly that section of the cabinet is tuned differently, I do not know. Based on the schematic I think this is the case.


8x10's are junk man. They work, and some people like the sound but they're poorly designed and I expect the only reason people like them is because it's what they are accustomed to. They're anemic in the low end, don't disperse well up top, and weigh 3x what you need to have to put out that much sound.

The problem I think you're running into is that the 410HLF has a huge frequency gap between around 600hz and 3500hz leading to getting lost in the mix very easily. Combine that with the Ampeg's mid scooped nature and you have a recipe for MUD if you don't eq to counteract it.

I see that you have two options.

1) The 410HLF with the SVT-4 pro should be enough volume to compete with a loud unamplified drummer or a half stack that is not pushed insanely hard and is willing to eq around you. Sit down with your guitar player and tell him:

We need to EQ out slots for each other so we can be heard in the mix. I want you to stop boosting your lows and your highs and run closer to 'unity' and I will do the same, then we'll eq around each other.

You need to work together to develop a mix sound, not just each try to get your tone separately. Sounds that sound good in the mix very often sound like crap alone, and vice versa.

So, work on mix tone and stop relying on pure chance. I would suggest you start with this as a guideline:

You should be cutting some low lows, boosting your low mids a bunch, cutting your mids a little and boosting your upper mids a little, possibly.

Your guitar player should try cutting some bass, boosting his mids and treble.

That's where I'd go as a starting point and see how it works.

Get your drummer in on the mixing down process and be absolutely sure that:
a) You do not swallow the bass drum
b) The guitarist does not swallow the cymbals and snare


2) Continue competing in the volume wars. You have more than enough amp to win any volume war with a guitar player but you need a much louder set of speakers capable of better top end extension and more sensitivity to do so.

Here are some recommendations:
a) Buy my Dr. Bass 3080 (it's cheap and will be way louder than your current rig and go higher) from the classifieds
b) Order a pair of LDS 115/6's and bridge your amp into them.


Bottom line though,you have plenty of rig for your situation, and you will get far more mileage out of making your idiot band mates listen to you and work together than you will out of buying new gear to fix a nonexistent problem.
 
... Anyone had any luck with a 15" and a 410 cab setup in bi-amp?? ...

I have a 4Pro biamping a 410HE and a SVT18. Biamping can increase your ultimate output because each cabinet is only having to reproduce what it is most efficient at. Also, the amp's power supply is not as heavily loaded because both channels are not trying to reproduce the same note at the same time.

Of course, it is harder to set up properly and it doesn't have the immediate gratification of bridging the 4pro into a 4 ohm load and letting those 1200 watts loose!

It really just depends on what kind of tone your after :cool:
 
Thank you so much for the advice man. I really appreciate it. I'll try and do some EQ changes and see what i can come up with. That Dr. Bass is insane... are the 15's super punchy in the high frequency's? I've never really played any 15's before. That cab looks like a ****ing warlord from the dawn of battle. NICE.
 
Thank you so much for the advice man. I really appreciate it. I'll try and do some EQ changes and see what i can come up with. That Dr. Bass is insane... are the 15's super punchy in the high frequency's? I've never really played any 15's before. That cab looks like a ****ing warlord from the dawn of battle. NICE.

It has pretty good mids/highs due to the 8" and horn. Maxspl in the midrange is around 120db IIRC. The 15s are extremely punchy or so especially. That's the 3015Lf for you though. It will knock you over with the kick drum wallop around 50hz and is just amazing on up. Low mids for days and days.

It'll do about 130db from 45-800hz with no real peaks or valleys with 900w. For reference that's about the sound of a jet engine from 100ft :P
 
+1 for changing your EQ. You should definitely be able to cut through with the rig you already have--you will just need to change your expectations about how the EQ "should" be set. I'd cut the lows below 50 Hz, boost some low mids around 300-400 Hz, and boost some upper mids around 1200 Hz. Not a ton of boost or cut in any case, but about 3 dB or roughly a couple of "tic marks" around the dial. This will give you the perception of big lows, and enough high mids to cut through, without wasting wattage down in the low lows which don't really help you on a live stage.

A bigger and more efficient cab is also a good idea.
 
+1 for changing your EQ. You should definitely be able to cut through with the rig you already have--you will just need to change your expectations about how the EQ "should" be set. I'd cut the lows below 50 Hz, boost some low mids around 300-400 Hz, and boost some upper mids around 1200 Hz. Not a ton of boost or cut in any case, but about 3 dB or roughly a couple of "tic marks" around the dial. This will give you the perception of big lows, and enough high mids to cut through, without wasting wattage down in the low lows which don't really help you on a live stage.

A bigger and more efficient cab is also a good idea.

Bongo gives you a little more specific direction on EQ but basically in line with my thinking - a big +1 here on the general idea.

The main resident frequency of electric guitar is 200 to 2000hz or thereabouts, if you figure in dispersion, probably closer to 200 to 800hz (guessing here so someone who knows better please chime in). So if you boost above that core frequency and below it, you'll get a thick sound that'll blend really well.

I'd actually aim toward a cut at 50hz and a boost at 150-200hz instead of boosting at 400, myself, but either method is valid as long as you guys don't step on each other's toes too much.

It takes a lot of experimentation and trial and error to get a good mix that pleases both of you, if you are not an expert on what sits where and all that.

At our last big show we had a pro sound guy and he managed to slot everything in just amazingly. So that's another something you could do is ask any friends in pro audio to help you set up your stuff :)
 
... The main resident frequency of electric guitar is 200 to 2000hz or thereabouts, if you figure in dispersion, probably closer to 200 to 800hz (guessing here so someone who knows better please chime in). ...

The frequencies of the open strings are:
E = 41.2Hz
A = 55Hz
D = 73.42Hz
G = 98Hz

At fret 20 on the G string (D#3, 155.56Hz) my spectrum analyzer showed strong harmonic content up to 1250Hz. Of course there is additional information even higher, depending on your playing style.
 
The frequencies of the open strings are:
E = 41.2Hz
A = 55Hz
D = 73.42Hz
G = 98Hz

At fret 20 on the G string (D#3, 155.56Hz) my spectrum analyzer showed strong harmonic content up to 1250Hz. Of course there is additional information even higher, depending on your playing style.

I guess that is useful info to have but not sure how it relates to what I was talking about which is more the frequency range for electric guitar (particularly with distortion) (which is closer to 200hz-2khz, though low E on a 6-stringer is around 82hz of course).
 
Oh, I was trying to help him eq his bass, not fix his guitarist.

Cutting the 50Hz band means giving up most of the E string. Boosting 150-200Hz is just going to pick up the harmonics. But that may be what he'd have to do to get the SPL he desires.

Very few bass cabs have appreciable output at 50hz - the 410HLF has some (probably around -3 to -6db) but gets excursion limited very quickly there.

The real frequency that matters for an E string is 82hz (The first harmonic) as that is both most of what we hear and most of what the bass cabinet can produce, as well as most of what the bass guitar can produce.

Most 34" scale basses put out around 20-30% of their energy as fundamental.

Anyway, bottom line is roll off 50hz a few db and you will drastically increase your headroom before doing damage to your speakers. The most popular speaker of all time, the SVT 8x10, is about -10db @ 42hz give or take, possibly more. I'd guess more like -20db really. (not that I endorse the use of such a cabinet:P)
 
I hated the two SVT 410hlf's I had, there was very little midrange and actual definition from that cab. The dispersion on those cabs was terrible too - my drummer could barely hear both of them pointing at him 20 feet away. Bad room acoustics for sure, but once I tried new speaker cabs, he heard me just fine with ONE Eden 410xlt. So I blame the 410hlf's on that one. Not a fair comparison on that one, but the Ampeg should have had at least been audible.

I say ditch the 410hlf and bridge (with the correct cable - Check manual) the Epifani 610 with the 4 PRO. Don't push those damn switches in either, start with everything flat and do SMALL or NO adjustments. Set the gain so the red light flashes often, but not for several seconds.