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Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!
- Thread starter roberthabraken
- Start date
After a lot of thinking about it, I still think this is probably the reason: a too rich black stain mix, not dissolved enough. If there are undissolved particles resting in little pockets in the figures, they are going to dissolve when the water with the red stain hits it. This happens slowly after applying the red stain, which also matches the observations I've made.
Thanks!
From the photos, from a distance, with low light, it looks absolutely amazing, probably even more with the clear coat on it. But with a spotlight on it, it doesn't. I could sell it as a kind of vintage / worn red burst, but I'm not sure I'm happy with that.
Right now I think it would be a good idea to do it again, it could cost me some time and money, but given the time I already invested... My worries that the existing edges are worn further are realistic, but the effect is minimal.
The only thing that still holds me back is that I cannot know for sure I'm not confronted with the same problem once more. This makes it a useless operation to try again.
So, I have a theory and some rather important questions, which I would like to be answered. Please chime in if you feel you have experience or the required knowledge on certain questions:
- I need to sand it back until the black stain is completely gone. Anyone knows if this is doable? Or would this take too much of the top? Which could give problems with the depth of drilled holes and most of all the pickup and neck pockets..
- After sanding, I could wet the top a few times, dissolving any particles that are still left, forcing them out. Then let dry, sand those back, and repeat. Until wetting the top doesn't generate those ugly spots. I reckon that if I can eliminate this effect with water, it wouldn't happen with the red stain anymore too. Would this be doable?
- I made a test piece with red stain only. Frustrating enough, the figure pops a lot more than expected, actually quite good! You also saw this with the black stain in the first stage of finishing. This tells me that I'd be more save by only adding red (with, maybe, a bit of black stain mixed in for a slightly darker colour). This could be my finish to go for in the end, being a rather safe option because the top would be already pretty much exhausted. Do you think this is a good idea as a new plan to fix the top?
1. I genuinely do not think you should sand the top so much that you are eliminating all colour from previous steps on the basis that you would need to do very aggressively in order to achieve this. The problems you stated are feasible, however I think that you can leave a degree of the existing colouration in the end grain of the figure which keeping will pop the figure. Safer than going back to the black sandback stage! In that case, why be so aggressive just to repeat what is already there?
2. The spots might well require a more aggressive approach to eliminate therefore these warrant further investigation rather than immediate risky obliteration! If you check these whilst sanding back (don't concentrate on them and create a low spot of course) and see how they develop. The work required to remove them fully might risk bigger problems than a few milder spots, and it might just be a case of accepting them as being what they are.
3. Yes, perhaps. As you can tell, I am quite circumspect about resorting to heavy invasive work on a relatively finished instrument. If were Indiana Jones, I would go buy a new hat rather than risk my hand. There is sufficient reasoning and evidence from your newest red test stain to say that you do not need to go back to square one.
I would expect that a clean-ish sandback that does not completely obliterate previous steps and does not endanger your roundover or other fragile bits would be sufficient to work from. It may end up marginally darker than your test piece depending on how much is left in the top, however erring on the side of caution seems appropriate. You can't put wood back on.
Indiana Jones of course would take a different approach which I cannot fully advocate.
2. The spots might well require a more aggressive approach to eliminate therefore these warrant further investigation rather than immediate risky obliteration! If you check these whilst sanding back (don't concentrate on them and create a low spot of course) and see how they develop. The work required to remove them fully might risk bigger problems than a few milder spots, and it might just be a case of accepting them as being what they are.
3. Yes, perhaps. As you can tell, I am quite circumspect about resorting to heavy invasive work on a relatively finished instrument. If were Indiana Jones, I would go buy a new hat rather than risk my hand. There is sufficient reasoning and evidence from your newest red test stain to say that you do not need to go back to square one.
I would expect that a clean-ish sandback that does not completely obliterate previous steps and does not endanger your roundover or other fragile bits would be sufficient to work from. It may end up marginally darker than your test piece depending on how much is left in the top, however erring on the side of caution seems appropriate. You can't put wood back on.
Indiana Jones of course would take a different approach which I cannot fully advocate.
Hi all, just came back from a very nice vacation. One week without the bass, which was actually very healthy, considering the stress the finishing problems gave me . Coming back to the bass, I still feel it isn't how I want it, and also think that I would do better another time. Maybe there's still room for another 'try'..
Thanks Carl, you're a great help!
1. Yes, I agree with your point of view, seems fair.
2. I wouldn't create low spots because I would still use the sanding block. But I do think I need to work the black areas with water to get the concentrated colour out. I feel that if I can wet the uncoloured top without getting black spots, I'm safe to proceed with colouring the top. Changing this working order would eliminate me working the top with colour so much that I get weak or dull spots and discolouring..
3. Right now, I would be more satisfied with a red / red figured maple top, than with what I have right now. So I will only apply red after steps one and two, accepting less contrast but a better quality result.
About the wood / body thickness: after finishing the body (just before final sanding, but that's marginal) I measured 43.35 mm of thickness (on average). Right now, with applying the varnish on the back and sanding back both the black and the purple finish, I measure a thickness varying from 42.6 to 42.8, mostly 42.75 and sometimes 43.0 mm.
I think that this means that the two sanding actions together took 0.6 mm (0.55 to be precise) off of the wood and that sanding it back one more time (I don't need to be that aggressive this time I guess) would take another 0.25 mm off..
This means the total body thickness after one more attempt will be 0.8 to 0.9 mm less than planned. Anyone thinks this would be a problem with pickup height / bridge adjustment height or anything else?
To be continued...
. Coming back to the bass, I still feel it isn't how I want it, and also think that I would do better another time. Maybe there's still room for another 'try'.. Thanks Carl, you're a great help!
1. Yes, I agree with your point of view, seems fair.
2. I wouldn't create low spots because I would still use the sanding block. But I do think I need to work the black areas with water to get the concentrated colour out. I feel that if I can wet the uncoloured top without getting black spots, I'm safe to proceed with colouring the top. Changing this working order would eliminate me working the top with colour so much that I get weak or dull spots and discolouring..
3. Right now, I would be more satisfied with a red / red figured maple top, than with what I have right now. So I will only apply red after steps one and two, accepting less contrast but a better quality result.
About the wood / body thickness: after finishing the body (just before final sanding, but that's marginal) I measured 43.35 mm of thickness (on average). Right now, with applying the varnish on the back and sanding back both the black and the purple finish, I measure a thickness varying from 42.6 to 42.8, mostly 42.75 and sometimes 43.0 mm.
I think that this means that the two sanding actions together took 0.6 mm (0.55 to be precise) off of the wood and that sanding it back one more time (I don't need to be that aggressive this time I guess) would take another 0.25 mm off..
This means the total body thickness after one more attempt will be 0.8 to 0.9 mm less than planned. Anyone thinks this would be a problem with pickup height / bridge adjustment height or anything else?
To be continued...
I would say no on the geometry front as long as your original plan gave you leeway in setup. I wouldn't be concerned about this on a bolt on anyway. The roundover is the only one here, but around 1mm is not a huge world ender.
Well, 1 mm is a lot if it comes to bridge saddle play (height-wise), but if I remember correctly I needed to put thm down fully so this could be okay. Pickups and neck rest on their pocket base 'floor' so they do not change in relation to each other. Guess you're right, the round over is the only one but I wanted to check other opinions. the round over isn't perfectly round but doesn't look bad this way, jus different. The difference is minimal though.
And there's always the possibility of shimming the neck a bit to get the action where you want if needed.
No pictures, my phone crashed and erased all photos I made today, but I redid the top again today. Sanded it back, wetting it inbetween the process to get the black out and stained for the third time.
This time I used a much more rich red with less water and a smaller cloth. Wiped off the superfluous dye right away too. This made the top dry faster and the black didn't have the change to form those ugly dots.
Still have some streaks of black in there, but nothing compared to the first two times and much more consistent throughout the top too. Lost some figure in the process which is a pity, due to more colour and less contrast (the wood is really saturated right now)! But that's something I had to sacrify I guess. Te red is brighter too by the way.
I hope it dries well and the varnish makes it pop a little, still, but due to the rich red I expect less spectacular results. We'll see.
To bad I cannot show you now, made a few nice shots. I will try again tomorrow, before varnishing.
Oh, and the round over looks different, not bad at all, but I liked the more round one better. Next time, I'll only use red because the figure pops anyway and black and red are too much contrast for me.
This time I used a much more rich red with less water and a smaller cloth. Wiped off the superfluous dye right away too. This made the top dry faster and the black didn't have the change to form those ugly dots.
Still have some streaks of black in there, but nothing compared to the first two times and much more consistent throughout the top too. Lost some figure in the process which is a pity, due to more colour and less contrast (the wood is really saturated right now)! But that's something I had to sacrify I guess. Te red is brighter too by the way.
I hope it dries well and the varnish makes it pop a little, still, but due to the rich red I expect less spectacular results. We'll see.
To bad I cannot show you now, made a few nice shots. I will try again tomorrow, before varnishing.
Oh, and the round over looks different, not bad at all, but I liked the more round one better. Next time, I'll only use red because the figure pops anyway and black and red are too much contrast for me.
Made a few new pics this morning. A bit hard to photograph, and a little less depth in the flames, but a more bright red and a more consistent result. I think I'll have to proceed with what I have right now (and I've consumed the maximum of the top before really harming the shape and function of the bass I guess):
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A few close ups with a rather exposing exposure:
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This shows the edges and details very well:
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As you may have noticed in the previous pictures, in a few spots (on top of the headstock and around the perimeter of the bottom of the body shape (held upwards)) there are some white chalky stains from the water drying (and the wood being saturated?). You can only see them from a certain angle and with a certain exposure. I made a picture and digitally adjusted it to clarify the 'issue':
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The remarkable thing is, that it disappears completely when wetted with Naphtha, actually looks rather good, deep red. This also applies to the headstock.
I asked this before, but do you think, when applying the varnish, it will also look good again? And will it stay this way? Or do you think that it returns when the varnish dries? And if so, any ideas how to fix this?
Again, your help and opinion is very much appreciated!
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A few close ups with a rather exposing exposure:
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This shows the edges and details very well:
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As you may have noticed in the previous pictures, in a few spots (on top of the headstock and around the perimeter of the bottom of the body shape (held upwards)) there are some white chalky stains from the water drying (and the wood being saturated?). You can only see them from a certain angle and with a certain exposure. I made a picture and digitally adjusted it to clarify the 'issue':
Invalid Link Removed
The remarkable thing is, that it disappears completely when wetted with Naphtha, actually looks rather good, deep red. This also applies to the headstock.
I asked this before, but do you think, when applying the varnish, it will also look good again? And will it stay this way? Or do you think that it returns when the varnish dries? And if so, any ideas how to fix this?
Again, your help and opinion is very much appreciated!
Hey Rob-
Those white patches around the edges look to me like they are the result of some endgrain absorption issues as a result of some different texturing and sanding on the roundovers.
You could certainly leave as-is, as the varnish will darken the spots somewhat - but once it dries it will still look somewhat faded relative to the rest of the bass.
Given that you are aiming for excellence, I would recommend against leaving it this way. On top of the areas being lighter in color on the finished product, you will be left with zero error margin if you happen to sand through your color coat in those spots during the rubout phase (it's happened to me!).
So here's what I would do. Mask the bass at the bottom near the bridge area (you don't need to worry about the rest, just that stretch along the edge of the faded color line. Sand those areas at some higher grits to close up the pores (you can see them quite well in the shot you posted - they actually appear as the lines of red dots along the edge).
Then, re-wet that portion of the bass (use a damp cloth to get that little area of the wood really wet but not a puddle. And then reapply some more red dye to that area, and feather it into the surrounding red. Assuming you've still got some red left over from your first pass, you should be able to get a flawless color match.
Lonnybass
PS one more thing - before you start applying varnish, make sure to hit the bass with three or four coats of dewaxed shellac to seal up the color before you begin topcoats.
Those white patches around the edges look to me like they are the result of some endgrain absorption issues as a result of some different texturing and sanding on the roundovers.
You could certainly leave as-is, as the varnish will darken the spots somewhat - but once it dries it will still look somewhat faded relative to the rest of the bass.
Given that you are aiming for excellence, I would recommend against leaving it this way. On top of the areas being lighter in color on the finished product, you will be left with zero error margin if you happen to sand through your color coat in those spots during the rubout phase (it's happened to me!).
So here's what I would do. Mask the bass at the bottom near the bridge area (you don't need to worry about the rest, just that stretch along the edge of the faded color line. Sand those areas at some higher grits to close up the pores (you can see them quite well in the shot you posted - they actually appear as the lines of red dots along the edge).
Then, re-wet that portion of the bass (use a damp cloth to get that little area of the wood really wet but not a puddle. And then reapply some more red dye to that area, and feather it into the surrounding red. Assuming you've still got some red left over from your first pass, you should be able to get a flawless color match.
Lonnybass
PS one more thing - before you start applying varnish, make sure to hit the bass with three or four coats of dewaxed shellac to seal up the color before you begin topcoats.
Thanks Lonny! One question: why do I have to seal the colour with shellac? I didn't plan to and didn't do it on the test piece. What could happen? My colour is water based and my varnish oil based. The varnish repelled water stain that accidentally got on it. Easy to wipe off. So I thought that the varnish wouldn't resolve the colour or could damage it in any way, right?
Rob-
There are a couple primary reasons for the sealer coat and I always apply it in between color coats and varnish.
1. It prevents the chance of any runs in the color when you apply your varnish. Especially if you apply too heavily in a spot or two and the varnish forms a drip, it could well pull some of your color out and you'd be facing a tricky spot repair.
2. It helps you build several easy-to-apply, quick drying protective layers that just may be the lifesaving thing that prevents you from sanding through the color during rubout.
3. It helps ensure there are no adhesion issues between your different finish types.
Let me know if you have more questions...
Lonnybass
Okay, funny: I accidentially touched the white stains and it came off.. So took a dry cloth and actually could wipe 90% off in one swipe.. 
First layer of varnish is on. Looks very promising! Hope it dries without changing colour too much. After drying, the first layer will still look a bit dull / flat, but at the back you could clearly see more shine after the second layer of varnish. So I hope it gets as shiny as the still wet varnish right after application.
First, the result of the dried stain after the third take, with the white patches whiped off and the edges taped (I want to bring the top to the same level of varnish before varnishing the complete bass in one pass!):
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And with the first (still wet, so a little deceiving) layer of varnish:
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If it stays like this, I'm very happy! The colour is perfect! A deep firetruck red with a very nice but subtle flame! I even like the flame more than with the black, which is surprising, because the dried stain looked rather dull.
Now lets pray I'll pull it off 'till the end and I consider the bass saved from my inexperienced staining tinkering
First, the result of the dried stain after the third take, with the white patches whiped off and the edges taped (I want to bring the top to the same level of varnish before varnishing the complete bass in one pass!):
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And with the first (still wet, so a little deceiving) layer of varnish:
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If it stays like this, I'm very happy! The colour is perfect! A deep firetruck red with a very nice but subtle flame! I even like the flame more than with the black, which is surprising, because the dried stain looked rather dull.
Now lets pray I'll pull it off 'till the end and I consider the bass saved from my inexperienced staining tinkering
Thanks!!
And thanks to all of you for encouraging me to redo the top until I am satisifed. Second time I thought, not again... but hey, it's worth it isn't it?
By the way: because I apply the varnish with a brush, you see some stripes / streaks in the wet finish, but since it's an oil based varnish, this actually evens out while drying. Right now, the dried part is completely flat and the colour is preserverd. Thus, still happy.
And thanks to all of you for encouraging me to redo the top until I am satisifed. Second time I thought, not again... but hey, it's worth it isn't it?
By the way: because I apply the varnish with a brush, you see some stripes / streaks in the wet finish, but since it's an oil based varnish, this actually evens out while drying. Right now, the dried part is completely flat and the colour is preserverd. Thus, still happy.
