• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

Robert-

Looking great. It's going to get shined up as you continue to build a solid film on the surface. Make sure you hit that bad boy with PLENTY of varnish topcoats (I aim for 12-14) and be prepared to let it cure untouched for a month before you rub out the finish. Gonna look terrific when that bass is done.

Lonnybass
 
Robert-

Looking great. It's going to get shined up as you continue to build a solid film on the surface. Make sure you hit that bad boy with PLENTY of varnish topcoats (I aim for 12-14) and be prepared to let it cure untouched for a month before you rub out the finish. Gonna look terrific when that bass is done.

Lonnybass

Thanks!! And uh.. Seriously? 12 - 14 coats ?? I was in doubt between three or four.. :hiding:


By the way, it has been three hours ago and the first coat dried wonderfully well!! It's nice and even, the colour is still perfect and there's no sign of the stain blending with the varnish. Sorry Lonny I didn't follow your sealing advice, but I decided to stick to my test piece, which worked fine this way. I did not feel like stepping away from my test procedure once again (did that with the black and caused a lot of trouble). So here's the result up until now:

Invalid Link Removed

Of course, more coats will make it shine a lot more as Lonny says, but so far, so good!! Oh, and of course a close up of the laminate details of both headstock and body:

Link Removed

That looks the part, doesn't it? As far as I consider, we're back on track with the 100% satisfying zen perfection feeling, being glad I redid the top twice and ready to forget the setbacks this colouring idea gave me.... :smug: Of course, I will practise more on smaller projects before applying stains again on another guitar in the future.

And now, I'm gonna get myself a good night of sleep!
 
Rob-

It's definitely looking great, glad you were able to get it to work with the first varnish application. The reason you want to aim for a nice thick varnish over many layers built up is because you're going to burn through a bunch of coats when you eventually do buff and polish it up to shine.

The more varnish you have on the bass, the more protection you have from eating right through a low spot in the finish and finding a spot of bare wood under your sanding block that isn't even red anymore!

TRUST ME you do not want to skip on clear coats!

It seems like it takes more time, but when you compare how much time could potentially go into nasty spot repairs and re-applications starting at square one (bare wood), it's WELL worth it.

Lonnybass
 
Thanks, any online tutorials of that you guys know of? I only planned a light sadnd and buff actually, didn't aim for a high buffed gloss finish per se, a nice smooth clear satin finish would be sweet as far as I consider. But, if I can get acquainted with the procedure you refer to I will certainly consider.
 
Thanks, any online tutorials of that you guys know of? I only planned a light sadnd and buff actually, didn't aim for a high buffed gloss finish per se, a nice smooth clear satin finish would be sweet as far as I consider. But, if I can get acquainted with the procedure you refer to I will certainly consider.


Get a good 4 coats on it, and block sand it with a good 400 grit to get it level, just the top and back, stay away from the sides, only do the flat surfaces for now. Don't try to sand out any low spots yet, as you will probably cut through the finish on the high spots while doing so. I would do the first sanding dry, because its easier to see your low spots. The low spots will remain glossy, when its wet it masks them

Next do about 2 more coats and hit it again with the block and 400 grit. Repeat this process until you have a dead flat surface. Then you can carefully sand the sides with a flexible foam sanding block.

The whole trick is to not cut through your finish, slow and methodical is your best bet.

When you have it dead flat with the 400 grit, start with 600 wet, and work your way up through the grits up 2000 grit. If you are happy with a satin finish you are done. If you want it shiny you can hit it with a buffing wheel and a light cut compound. I use Meguires light cut cleaner. You don't need any special tools to do this. Just a drill with a low speed and a wool or foam buffing pad with a drill attachment. Keep the speed pretty low, and don't stay in one spot to long. I do my stuff in sections, like one corner of the body at a time, using minimal amounts of compound, with light pressure on the buffing wheel.
 
For clarity, and to be able to update my blog with a decent report of what happenend, I made a complete and chronological blog post that shows the second part of the finishing process. I will delete temporarly uploaded pictures of the discussion of the past weeks, to replace them by this post.


Another pic heavy post, to report about the second part of the finishing adventure of the Paradox... Where the first part went smooth as planned, the second one was one of trial and error. Unexpected things happened and, so it turned out, I had to fix the consequences of a deviation from my test piece in the first part of the finishing.

I started with sanding back the black dye. This step proved to be rather difficult, to get an even shade on the low and high spots of the figured maple. Also, because I applied a well concentrated layer of black stain, I had to sand considerably more and longer than with my test piece. But, the result, at least to me, looked promising:

Link Removed

But while applying the red stain, it already became apparent that there was way too much black in the mix. It made the red a lot darker and when dry, it looked like this:

Link Removed

The edges look nice, the burst and flames too, but the colour is way too purple and dark compared to what I had in mind. Also, there are black patches on the top where the concentration of black is somewhat higher, making the finish irregular. This lead me to the conclusion that I used a too high concentration of black staining powder when I made the black dye. This is where I deviated from my test piece, intentionally, because I wanted a more pronounced figure. I should have really tested this change before applying it to the bass, but I didn't see a reason why it wouldn't work. Now, I do.

So I decided to sand back the top, again. As you can see, I went further back than the first time, and the colour in the grain is more red than black:

390-sanded-back-again.jpg


Because I didn't see much black in the sanded back top I thought this would be a far better starting point. I applied a new layer of red stain:

391-a-new-layer-of-red.jpg


Right after applying the stain, everything looked great! But when the top started drying, the black pulled out, creating little black dots. I found out I could work them out by polishing the top some more with a stain cloth, but they kept coming back each time. Because I worked the top a lot more than intended, the black started mixing with the red again, so I ended up with a darker and more purple red than right after applying the red stain the second time. Anyhow, this second attempt came out way better than the first one:

392-second-attempt-looks-better.jpg


But, on close inspection, you could see the black spots were still present:

393-nasty-black-spots.jpg


It's very hard for me to understand why this happens. A lot of people use this technique, also for the first time, and I never saw this issue mentioned before. After much analyzing I suspect that this is also the result of the rich black stain mixture. If black powder particles, still undissolved, reside in the lower areas of the grain, they will be activated when the wet red stain hits the wood. Not immediately, so right after applying the red stain everything looks great, but when the black particles slowly dissolve as the red stain dries, little puddles of black stain appear, creating these ugly blemishes. Remarkably, the black dots could only be seen at daylight.

I thought about it for over a week and decided I couldn't live with the result. So I took a deep breath and sanded the top back again:

394-sanded-back-again.jpg


As you can see, there was no need to go back as far as last time, because the amount of black already got to a minimum. Also, you can see plain maple streaks on the far ends of the top on both bass and treble side. This is a difference in flame and grain that's part of the natural figure of the wood. I also saw this in the first passes and sanded those areas less to hide them, but I now discovered than the difference in height became too much and I also learned from the previous steps that this difference in figure didn't really show after staining, so I decided to sand it flat this time.

To get it right this time I decided to change a few things: I used a smaller cloth to apply the stain, with less water, so the top dried quicker, not giving the potentionally left behind black powder particles to dissolve. Also, I made the red mix a lot more concentrated. This proved to be a good decision, as the top, once dried, looked far better than my earlier attempts:

Link Removed

The figure is more subtle than planned, due to the black being removed along the way, but I actually like it thus far and the varnish will make it pop some more in the end. As you can see, these close ups show that the black spots disappeared to the bare minimum and the high exposed shots do show a good enough result to proceed with:

396-staining-result-close-up.jpg


397-staining-result-close-up.jpg


I am happy with the result, guess that third time lucky applies once again.. so I masked the bass partly to apply varnish to the top only this time:

398-taped-for-varnish.jpg


And hit it with the a first coat of varnish:

399-first-varnish-layer-on-top.jpg


Cool! This is going to look nice. Here are some close ups of the flames, which are more clear than I thought they would be, but more subtle than initially planned. Frankly, I like this better than my test piece after all:

400-wet-varnish-first-layer-close-up.jpg


401-wet-varnish-first-layer-close-up.jpg


Because I applied the varnish with a brush, you can see some streaks in the wet varnish, but that'll even out due to the fact it's oil based. The shine it has now, when wet, will also disappear partly when drying, but that does come back mostly by applying consecutive layers of varnish.

This is how it looks after a few hours, you can see it dried to a more satin finish, but very evenly. I'm happy so far!

402-first-varnish-layer-dry.jpg


And a close up of all the laminate details both on body and headstock:

403-laminate-details.jpg


Next up will be the application of more layers of varnish, light sanding and buffing.

:bassist:
 
Rob-

Some great advice from Hopkins.

Personally, I think if you're going after a warm satin finish, your most foolproof method would be to hit the bass with 6 to 10 coats, then let it cure for about 3 weeks.

Once that's over, do a GENTLE surface wetsand at 800 with warm soapy water, then 1000. Aim simply to get out any finish strokes, dust or fibers and stop when the bass has reached a uniform cloudy appearance under good lighting.

Then, take a pad of OOOO steel wool and good furniture wax, and rub a uniform sheen all over the bass. Let it dry for about 20 minutes, and then buff off with a clean towel or an automotive buffing wheel. You'll have a nice warm satiny finish that is durable and can be easily repaired.

Lonnybass
 
To clarify, the soap in the water is there for a specific reason....to stop the sandpaper "loading up" with lumps of debris from the sanding process. From a simple clean bar of soap, free of moisturisers or "pH balancing" stuff.

+1. And when you do wetsand, work in small areas (think in terms of zones) and continually dry-check the areas you've wetsanded...the disadvantage with wetsanding is that the water makes it very difficult to see if you've sanded through your finish, which will typically appear when dry as a matte ovalish circle on the bass.

Lonnybass
 
Thanks guys! For completeness, this is the tutorial I found and decided to follow before I got your advices and instructions:

http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-Projects/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tips/how-to-apply-polyurethane (click on Step-by-step)

The second layer is on now, everything goes well.

I have one thing to sort out yet: due to the water used while staining, the grain is raised, which causes very tiny bumps on the surface in the pattern of the grain / flames. You can't see this in the pictures, but from close by with good light, you can. Do you think I can just sand them out with the first sanding round? Should I carry on laying new layers of varnish on there and sand them out later, or deal with them now before continuing with the varnish?

Applied the second varnish layer:

Invalid Link Removed

When the second layer was about dry:

Invalid Link Removed

Currently working on the logo too, want to have it printed in white on a transparant decal. Already found a supplier, but a bit blown away by the price of them (about 130 dollar for five of them).
 
Yes. The only sanding you would ever do between coats is to improve intercoat adhesion, which in this case is unnecessary as each successive layer should chemically bond to the previous layer's surface unless that surface has fully cured and the solvent in the varnish can't reflow it. I guess you could knock back these high spots however if they are raised from under the varnish then you could knock right through the layers.
 
Put that sandpaper down or we'll come and take it off you. Get back in the room with the brush and varnish. Don't come out until you are finished.

There's a nice beer in the fridge waiting for you.

Totally right. Especially without a couple of sealer coats over the color, any sanding at this stage is a red-tinted recipe for disaster. Not only that, but if you try to get a smooth surface at this point, you're never going to build up a finish.

Focus solely on building up many streak-free coats so that you have a lot of room to work with when you're ready to level it all out. And don't worry about a rough feeling surface, the grain will fill as you go and it can all be smoothed to glass once it's cured.

Lonnybass