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Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

#1,221
I did one more coat yesterday, which did hide the witness lines completely, but I am not really happy with the smoothness of the last four coats in total. Too wavey..

I also learned another thing concerning those witness lines. If you sand too quickly after application (what I did with the body), the coat kind of breaks where you sand it and the witness lines are a kind of steps. This took four coats to cover and resulted in a less smooth surface. On the control cover and the neck I waited longer before sanding, and then, the witness lines are smooth transitions from one layer to another looking (like slopes) a bit fuzzy but of course more smooth and level and easier to hide with a few coats.

So now I waited this long I figured I can wait a bit longer too, and I do have more experience. I also got happy from redoing the red, so: I will wait a few days till the finish cures very well, maybe next Saturday, then I will sand everything as smooth as possible (the thicker coat now helps me in getting it really flat without the risk of sanding through, or at least the risk is smaller). Then I will clean the whole bass thoroughly and apply two more coats. That should give me better results than what I have right now.

Ps. Lonny, not that I do not believe your advice that I could stop here, but I just think it could be better. Knowing that you think this would be okay helps me in knowing when to stop and what to reach, but I just wanted to take it a step further from here ;)
 
#1,222
roberthabraken said:
I did one more coat yesterday, which did hide the witness lines completely, but I am not really happy with the smoothness of the last four coats in total. Too wavey..

I also learned another thing concerning those witness lines. If you sand too quickly after application (what I did with the body), the coat kind of breaks where you sand it and the witness lines are a kind of steps. This took four coats to cover and resulted in a less smooth surface. On the control cover and the neck I waited longer before sanding, and then, the witness lines are smooth transitions from one layer to another looking (like slopes) a bit fuzzy but of course more smooth and level and easier to hide with a few coats.

So now I waited this long I figured I can wait a bit longer too, and I do have more experience. I also got happy from redoing the red, so: I will wait a few days till the finish cures very well, maybe next Saturday, then I will sand everything as smooth as possible (the thicker coat now helps me getting it really flat without the risk of sanding through, or at least the risk is smaller). Then I will clean the whole bass thoroughly and apply two more coats. That should give me better results than what I have right now.

Ps. Lonny, not that I do not believe your advice that I could stop here, but I just think it could be better. Knowing that you think this would be okay helps me in knowing when to stop and what to reach, but I just wanted to take it a step further from here ;)
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Rob-

Trust what your eyes and the experience you are gaining is telling you my friend. There's no harm at all in continuing to apply coats as you feel more confident about the results you are getting. Just keep in mind that - based on what I saw of the reflectivity of the surface of the bass in the video - most if not all of those surface waves and lines will readily come out from buffing once the varnish has cured like a rock.

Lonnybass
 
#1,224
On the subject of avoiding witness lines- when I've used polyurethane varnish in the past, the instructions said something like "Apply first coat. Wait one hour, apply second coat. If you wait more than 2 hours, lightly sand the first coat to promote adhesion, then apply second coat."

I was under the impression that if you apply the 2nd (and progressive coats) soon enough, the first coat hasn't completely dried and so the second coat (and progressive coats) partially "liquify" the previous coat and bond with it. This seems like it would eliminate the problem of witness lines when you sand or polish the finish at the end.

Do the instructions for applying your varnish mention anything like that?
 
#1,226
No, the instructions of my can say to wait 24 hours before applying the next coat, optionally light sand inbetween. I tried applying the next after a few hours, but then the first coat is still sticky which makes the second one messy (doesn't level out properly). In theory you are right, although Hopkins said that it is normal for varnish to have witness lines.
 
#1,228
wraub said:
Just wanted to add my 2 cents, imo that is looking great!

Patience, my son... ;)

wraub
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Thank you :smug:. Yeah.. patience, patience.. Funny thing is I had enough while doing the woodworking, but declared the bass almost finished after that, so the finishing process is really challanging my patience right now and the suspense is killing me. On the other side, I am learning so much, that I enjoy the process nonetheless.


I just sanded the complete bass flat, using wet 600 g paper. Since I waited longer before doing so, the result is much better, smooth result and more subtle witness lines than before. I also sanded the sides and the corners a little bit to get the entire bass as smooth as possible without eating up too much of the varnish already. Being very pleased with the result, I coated the entire bass and at first sight it looks like that went well. I hope, really hope, I'm only one coat away from being finished with the varnish, as more coats introduce more risk of a wavy surface, dust particles and such. All in all I think it's a good thing I decided to go over it once more with the sanding and coating. Fingers crossed, we're almost there :D.
 
#1,230
Really, finishes for me are the worst part of the build. The thing to keep in mind (and I think you have) is, if you are unhappy about it make it right until you're satisfied. You are the first and last call on how good the quality is.

This has been a fun build to watch, thanks!
 
#1,231
roberthabraken said:
Thank you :smug:. Yeah.. patience, patience.. Funny thing is I had enough while doing the woodworking, but declared the bass almost finished after that, so the finishing process is really challanging my patience right now and the suspense is killing me. On the other side, I am learning so much, that I enjoy the process nonetheless.


I just sanded the complete bass flat, using wet 600 g paper. Since I waited longer before doing so, the result is much better, smooth result and more subtle witness lines than before. I also sanded the sides and the corners a little bit to get the entire bass as smooth as possible without eating up too much of the varnish already. Being very pleased with the result, I coated the entire bass and at first sight it looks like that went well. I hope, really hope, I'm only one coat away from being finished with the varnish, as more coats introduce more risk of a wavy surface, dust particles and such. All in all I think it's a good thing I decided to go over it once more with the sanding and coating. Fingers crossed, we're almost there :D.
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Rob-

Each day you get one step closer my friend - that bass is going to be a looker when it's done and the time you are putting in will be worth it. You just need to figure out where in your house you can hang the finished instrument so that it becomes a beautiful, functional piece of wall art you can admire and show off when you're not playing it!

One thing to keep in mind - it's almost entirely impossible to get a dust-free, glassy surface on its own. Sooo...be as diligent as possible in aiming for perfection but remember you'll EASILY be able to get it mirror-smooth during the buff stage.

Little dust nibs or other schmutz (to quote my dad) is inevitable, but since they're right on the surface they'll come right out once the varnish hardens up.

All this talk about finishing on your bass has got my burning to get into the finish stage on my current builds...thanks for motivating me to get off my duff!

Lonnybass
 
#1,232
Prostheta said:
You've maintained a positive attitude throughout the build and taken as much as you can from the learning processes. I truly hope you make building a regular habit. Anybody that uses CAD and can transfer designs to the real world is a winner in my book too. Have a congratulatory beer.
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I absolutely hope to make building a regular habit. You see, I started this build one week after the birth of my youngest child, the oldest one being just shy of two years older. I can tell you, those kids consume almost all of your free time, next to the day job and the household. I enjoy every moment of it and building is of a lower priority, of course. I thought of it like this: this build'll be slow, but at least I'm still gaining experience. When I have more time and more experience I can pick up the building in a more productive pace.

I will have the beer when I'm finished and pleased with the build, heck, I'll even buy you all one to celebrate it together (couldn't have done it with your help guys!) :D

Nomad98 said:
Really, finishes for me are the worst part of the build. The thing to keep in mind (and I think you have) is, if you are unhappy about it make it right until you're satisfied. You are the first and last call on how good the quality is.

This has been a fun build to watch, thanks!
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Thanks! And good tip, one of the things I learned with this build too. Pays off until now.. :smug:

Lonnybass said:
Rob-

Each day you get one step closer my friend - that bass is going to be a looker when it's done and the time you are putting in will be worth it. You just need to figure out where in your house you can hang the finished instrument so that it becomes a beautiful, functional piece of wall art you can admire and show off when you're not playing it!

One thing to keep in mind - it's almost entirely impossible to get a dust-free, glassy surface on its own. Sooo...be as diligent as possible in aiming for perfection but remember you'll EASILY be able to get it mirror-smooth during the buff stage.

Little dust nibs or other schmutz (to quote my dad) is inevitable, but since they're right on the surface they'll come right out once the varnish hardens up.

All this talk about finishing on your bass has got my burning to get into the finish stage on my current builds...thanks for motivating me to get off my duff!

Lonnybass
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Funny you mention this, my wife's impressed with the build and offered to hang it on the wall in the living room a while ago. So, I ordered a Woodies Hanger set so I can mount it invisible to the wall like this:

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We're probably going to move a painting over to create a nice space. I'll share a picture when it's on the wall :D

No problem, great to hear you're motivated again, you build great basses!!
 
#1,233
Thanks buddy. We're all here to help and learn from each other. Looking forward to seeing it up on the wall. I just installed a new trophy wall last month and it makes quite a statement.

I totally know the drill on how the little guys really eat up time, especially when it comes to bass building. I have a three year old and it seemed like every time I would use his nap time to set up a router jig or prep a glue joint, he'd wake up...leaving with me no time to actually DO anything! And then there's the Fatigue Factor...15 hours chasing a toddler around the house doesn't provide one with much "well rested" time to operate large, dangerous potentially lethal power tools! :help:

Lonnybass
 
#1,236
Ah, it's all good until you realise that all your good work gets thrown out of the window after fourteen or so years in favour of ridiculousness.

You certainly have the one-up on me Rob. I haven't found the time to do any learning on the paint side of things like I intended to do this year. I have one bass ready for final prepping on paint and another on the go which will need the same. I really should get my spray chops together.

I have to say that I hope you get chance to make a nice demo recording of the bass as I really keyed onto those Delanos you decided on. I will perhaps consider a pair of the same or similar for a Jazz further down the line myself.
 
#1,237
Prostheta said:
Ah, it's all good until you realise that all your good work gets thrown out of the window after fourteen or so years in favour of ridiculousness.

You certainly have the one-up on me Rob. I haven't found the time to do any learning on the paint side of things like I intended to do this year. I have one bass ready for final prepping on paint and another on the go which will need the same. I really should get my spray chops together.

I have to say that I hope you get chance to make a nice demo recording of the bass as I really keyed onto those Delanos you decided on. I will perhaps consider a pair of the same or similar for a Jazz further down the line myself.
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I will, definitely! Can't wait to hear those Delano's through my Eden :bassist:

Funny thing: I didn't dare doing a nitro spray finish, because I had lots of troubles with drips and such in the past. That's why I went with the brushed on varnish. Now, I learned that the application in itself doesn't matter all that much, as you can cut of drips with a knife and sand the finish perfectly flat afterwards before buffing. I didn't know or realize that before. Also, now I have done those things on my bass, it actually proves to be very doable. But the varnish, on the other side, presents me with the witness lines challenge, which isn't one of the nitro features, so to say. Meaning, the brushing varnish may end up more difficult and daunting than the nitro. One more occasion in which the bass' name seems to backfire at me :D.

Conclusion: next time I will do an oil finish (like TRU oil) or a nitro finish, where I aim to practise the latter on different subjects first.


Build update: just finished applying the 16th coat. Number 14 (right after the last thorough sanding) came out spotless, 100% smooth and good looking. Bam! Number 15 dried a lot less smooth (bummer), but maybe I did apply that coat too warily and hence too thin. It didn't spread out as well as I'd hoped. But oh well, I applied coat number 16 tonight and tried to get it a bit thicker. All in all, I still feel the result will come out better than before I started sanding (up until coat 13) and I do hope the last coat cures well. If so, I can store my brush for real this time and order some 0000 steel wool and wax.

:smug:
 
#1,238
Did some reading about rubbing out a poly varnish. General consensus is that you can never get it more shiny than off the brush, that poly is a more difficult finish to rub out to a high gloss finish because of its softness, and that the best finish to aim for is a satin one. So this all leads to the idea Lonny gave me: rub out with 0000 steel wool and wax for a warm satin finish.

Found this blog post that pretty much explains the process clearly and to the point: http://garyweeks.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/rubbing-out-a-polyurethane-varnish-finish/

Questions:
  • whats the abrasive pad he's talking about? opposed to sand paper or steel wool?
  • would Briwax Clear be a suitable wax for this application?

Onto the bass: didn't get it a lot better than four layers ago. The headstock face is, but other places may be a little less than before, not sure. I think I have to leave it here, doesn't get any better anyway. Some pictures to show the current status:

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I will order all stuff for the rubbing out fase and practise on my test piece first. It's small, but I hope it will prove the method.
 
#1,239
Yes. Off the brush the paint is free of the micro scratches which are the result of sanding. Beyond a certain point these scratches are perceived as glossy (the incidence of reflection caused is too tight to perceive as satin or matte). Rubbed wax over this will bring your gloss up further. I think this is correct anyway or I have been labouring under misapprehensions for too long.
 
#1,240
Prostheta said:
Yes. Off the brush the paint is free of the micro scratches which are the result of sanding. Beyond a certain point these scratches are perceived as glossy (the incidence of reflection caused is too tight to perceive as satin or matte). Rubbed wax over this will bring your gloss up further. I think this is correct anyway or I have been labouring under misapprehensions for too long.
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Do you know Briwax? Is that the right kind of wax / product for the intended purpose?
 

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