Build II - Paradox MJ5 - New design!

[Prostheta]

Yes, I use Briwax and similar products on items of furniture I make. I actually used colourless Liberon wax on my Carl Thompson style bass after oiling. I am not sure about Briwax as to whether it is colourless or slightly ambering.

I would recommend stockpiling as much old cotton material as possible for the buffing process. Denim is pretty good at first then softer "pillowy" cotton later. I would say that it is worthwhile taking your time with waxing as applying too much at once becomes very hard work when dry and it is time to buff it out. That harder work can translate into putting too much pressure into buffing and creating streaks or a bad finish in areas. Many thin coats lightly buffed out completely to a soft slippery gloss.

Briwax is thinner than the Liberon wax which says to me that it has less solids
/binding agents or just more solvent. Both are equally good for my uses however but I can't comment on how Briwax would work on an instrument finish as I have only used the Liberon. Equally I am unsure how the solvent (Toluene in Briwax) will react with your varnish, if at all.

Both waxes have a consistency like thin cream when it warms up to body temperature. Briwax is consistently like a creamy jelly and Liberon is like solid butter. I guess you could warm the tins up in hot(tish) water but this has never been necessary for me.

Briwax is cheaper although I do not entirely believe that the higher cost of the Liberon waxes mean they are superior.

This is how wax looked before and after over a curing oil finish (Tru-oil). Given that an oiled finish is relatively satin for the most part, wax brings up the gloss quite well. Wax over your varnish finish buffed up to a good gloss should become very glassy. Much glassier than the following examples.

BEFORE (a more diffuse satin-y look):
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AFTER (additional cured coats of oil, flattened then thin layers of wax buffed out till surface becomes almost frictionless):
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In the context of furniture, this is purely one layer of Briwax "Walnut" over plain Birch (think, "Maple") sanded up to 400 grit. The gloss comes just from the wax being buffed up.

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I think that you would be best testing your Briwax on any scrap pieces you used to test your finish, if you kept those. My only concerns would be the presence of solvents and the potential for the wax to amber your existing finish slightly. Other than that, I think it will be great.

Lonny - what specific waxes did you have in mind? I was wondering whether there are any out there with high solids content of Carnauba which to my mind would be harder and glossier over the longer term than "furniture-grade" waxes.

 

[roberthabraken]

(...)

Lonny - what specific waxes did you have in mind? I was wondering whether there are any out there with high solids content of Carnauba which to my mind would be harder and glossier over the longer term than "furniture-grade" waxes.

Thanks Carl. I'm hesitant to just try the Briwax to try on a test piece without knowing it would be suitable or knowing it compares to what Lonny had in mind. I have a lot of test pieces, but only one of them got the same build up of varnish I gave the bass over the last few weeks, as also the red dyed top.

My guitar parts suppliers sells a "hard wax" (no branding on the can) with the description: "Bees wax with 20% addition of Carnauba wax! Hardens crystallic and gives a resistant and smooth wood surface. Great to apply after the use of our Oil & Wax Set."

I'm not sure if that's good to use over a poly varnish when applied with steel wool.

If anyone knows a brand / product I am safe with for this application, it would be great if you'd share

 

[Prostheta]

To be honest - other than care waxes in an instruments use - I have not encountered wax as being a step in completing a clearcoat finish schedule, pretty much as you describe. I have long associated it with oil finishes. Probably been brainwashed by Warwick.

I used to use car waxes on my instruments until I got bored of disassembling and reassembling instruments to prevent wax building up around pickup rings and in the crevices. I got excellent results with the more expensive Meguiars waxes such as "Deep Crystal" and the "NXT Gen" products. A degree of hyperbole and snake oil exists in their product range to "big them up" however I found one can lasted me a really long time and proved cheaper than proprietary guitar-specific products. I threw the can out because I accidentally contaminated it with a dirty pad and didn't want to drag grit across instruments. It was still over half full after four years.

 

[roberthabraken]

To be honest - other than care waxes in an instruments use - I have not encountered wax as being a step in completing a clearcoat finish schedule, pretty much as you describe. I have long associated it with oil finishes. Probably been brainwashed by Warwick.

I used to use car waxes on my instruments until I got bored of disassembling and reassembling instruments to prevent wax building up around pickup rings and in the crevices. I got excellent results with the more expensive Meguiars waxes such as "Deep Crystal" and the "NXT Gen" products. A degree of hyperbole and snake oil exists in their product range to "big them up" however I found one can lasted me a really long time and proved cheaper than proprietary guitar-specific products. I threw the can out because I accidentally contaminated it with a dirty pad and didn't want to drag grit across instruments. It was still over half full after four years.

To clarify: although I am finishing a clear coat, I am not after a gloss finish. Also, you refer to car waxes, I didn't as far as I know. Is Briwax or the bees wax I referred to a car wax? Or should you use car wax instead of what I came up with? Don't get your point, sorry (probably because of my lack of sense of the English language).

Please take a quick look at this short blog post: http://garyweeks.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/rubbing-out-a-polyurethane-varnish-finish/

This exactly explains what I'm after. He uses "an abrasive pad" and "a compound made for the purpose"... I have honestly no idea what to buy

 

[Prostheta]

Sorry, I keep forgetting your specification of a satin finish. I always think "gloss" whenever I see darker colours on an instrument, especially black. I'm not really a fan of satin as time turns them glossier anyway, so I have never aimed for this finish outside of natural oil finishes. Great on a neck though.

Briwax and Liberon waxes are for interior furniture, or at least that is their designed purpose. They are softer finishes in my mind so I restrict them to non-contact uses or - in the case of my bass - one of that "soft" in feel where marks won't stick out like a polar bear turd in snow. They do have the advantage of giving natural wood a very warm and soft feel. I love using wax on furniture as it makes it appealing to the eye as living wood and tempting to "touch". I digress. I find them both fairly glossy after multiple applications and lightly buffed out with soft cloths.

Beeswax is often used on its own or in blends of waxes for interior use also. Beeswax is pretty soft and often that property is used to advantage in blends. We care wax our furniture with beeswax to add patina around the metal hardware and in the imperfections as it "builds up" well. Warwick care wax is probably quite high in beeswax also to make it more malleable and help it flow.

Carnauba is a harder and glossier wax which is often used on cars and other durable interior and some exterior uses. The reason I mentioned car waxes is because I often used those as care waxes on instruments with poly finishes after cleaning. Unbelievably slick and glossy but I wouldn't use them in any kind of thickness....more like a polish or film. This is the only combination of clear coating and wax I have experience with and generally the result is glossy. Not what you are after. It might be possible to knock it back to satin but I haven't tried this myself.

An abrasive pad could mean either a foam sanding sponge or - from the blog post - something similar to 3M Scotchbrite which is essentially an artificial steel wool substitute. I would not use either for flattening a surface as they conform too easily into low areas and soften edges leaving wide ripples rather than knocking off the high areas. He was using abrasive pads merely to keep the wood looking like it had been oiled (naturally undulating) rather than "coated in plastic" (perfectly flat). Abrasive pads or indeed steel wool are fine for waxing as long as they are not too coarse or used roughly.

Let me get you a few photos of the results of Briwax and Liberon waxes on bare wood. It may not directly translate to how they will work over a varnish however it might help. Lonny is the best person to feed into this wax-over-varnish thing since he obviously has direct experience and can recommend (or recommend avoiding) certain types or blends. I suspect Carnauba would be one to avoid because of the aforementioned glossiness it is commonly used for, although it might be used in certain blends for the durability.

 

[Prostheta]

Single application of Briwax Walnut wax applied over Birch sanded to 400 grit, rubbed out with soft towelling (exposed tenon is end grain).
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Single application of Liberon colourless/clear wax rubbed over white Oak sanded to 400 grit.
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The products Lonny has to hand will probably go under different brand names so we might have to do some kind of silly geeky wax thing comparing blends unless "car wax containing Carnauba" or "furniture wax containing beeswax" is sufficient to identify a suitable product. It might even be that both are fine, or that even a wax containing 60% horse might do the trick. Crazier things have happened man.

 

[roberthabraken]

Thanks for your input. Based upon your story I kind of think that Beeswax with 20% Carnauba might be suitable for the application. If I read it correctly.

Furthermore, it seems he uses an abresive pad to get the surface dull evenly after wet sanding the finish flat.

I'm also curious what you think of the current state of the finish.

Kind of waiting for Lonny to chime in too

 

[Lonnybass]

Hey guys, good morning from Minneapolis! Looks like a lot of great information during the overnight hours.

In terms of the discussions around waxes and polish methods, you have some nice options but to make things as simple and straightforward as possible - without dumping loads of cash or sacrificing quality - I'd just go with a nice, high quality commercially available paste wax like this:

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Meguiar's make a few paste waxes for autos and boats, which would be well suited to your needs as well, but also remember that those formulations are generally designed to go on as the last step in a multi-stage clearcoat maintenance cycle and so I'd probably stick to the Minwax or a comparable HQ product that you can get at your local hardware store.

Here are a few shots of basses I completed using this varnish, wool and wax method:

Here's a body immediately after being buffed out with paste wax - you can see how I was able to work up a nice warm shine without it looking plasticky:

And another one:

Ultimately, the steel wool and wax approach allows you to very quickly create a uniformly diffuse scratch pattern on both your flat and curved surfaces with a low risk of eating through layers. Once it hardens, it will form a THIN protective film that can be easily maintained.

If you let it dry for 20 minutes or so, you'll be able to buff it back up to a natural shiny look without it seeming blindingly glossy.

Let me know what you think!

Lonnybass

 

[Lonnybass]

Ok, I got a couple more shots showing the kind of natural sheen you can get off of a rubbed out wax layer.

Like the ones pictured in my earlier post, they LOOK like oil finishes but the varnish is where you get the protective benefits. And the wax allows for it all to be smoothed out with the warm sheen while retaining the benefits of both the oiled look and the varnish protectant.

Lonnybass

 

[roberthabraken]

Thanks for chiming in Lonny. Absolutely great info and pictures, those basses look great and the finishing method promising! I hope I'll be able to approach such a great result somehow. I'm still concerned with the witness lines, because I think I need sanding before buffing, or I will get them anyway while applying the wax.

I will definitely try to source the Minwax paste!!

Now I'll try to work out two methods based on the discussion of the last few weeks and some articles I found:

1. Rub out with wax only
   • I will start right away with Minwax and 0000 steel wool to apply the wax. The wax fills up the lower areas and makes it flat, also lubricating the steel wool. The steel wool will make the finish dull / satin.
   • I wipe of the wax if there should be too much on there anywere.
   • Maybe I could buff it up a little with a cotton cloth?
2. Sanding, dry buffing and rubbing out with wax
   • Wet sand the varnish completely flat with 600 g sandpaper and a drop of soap to lubricate.
   • This creates witness lines and dull (high) and glossy (low) areas. So I dry buff the finish with 'an abrasive pad' to get it dull evenly. This should make the witness lines disappear because now everything is dull, right? This is, at least, how I interpret the article.
   • Now use the Minwax to polish the result to a warm shiny satin finish, using 0000 steel wool for application.
   • Wipe off the excess and maybe polish up with some cotton cloth.

What do you think? Somewhere method 1 feels less tricky and could avoid witness lines, but on the other hand may not work out to a nice and flat finish because the still visible brush strokes in my finish. Also, if witness lines will appear this way, I may not be able to get them out. Method 2 seems to be more daunting, but somehow this gives me the feeling that the witness lines that appear will be hidden in the process. This also leaves a very smooth and flat surface due to the sanding in the first place.

 

[Lonnybass]

Rob-

You nailed it, this exactly the way you want to do it for the lowest-risk, most foolproof high quality result...

-Rub out with wax only
I will start right away with Minwax and 0000 steel wool to apply the wax. The wax fills up the lower areas and makes it flat, also lubricating the steel wool. The steel wool will make the finish dull / satin.
I wipe of the wax if there should be too much on there anywere.
Maybe I could buff it up a little with a cotton cloth?

Judging from your description, and the photos/video, you have been EXTREMELY diligent in applying even coats with little dust build-up or other weird things happening. Way more than me.

In reviewing it all - I doubt you'd need to do ANY sanding to get the result you want.

And you're absolutely right, the wax can be buffed up to a shine once you've rubbed out the surface and it has a chance to harden a little. Think of it like waxing a car - it goes on all cloudy and kind of splotchy, but after 20 minutes of hardening up on the clear coat it is buffed to a beautiful "wet-look" shine.

Don't forget, the steel wool/wax method will dig into all the little brush strokes and blend it together into an even-looking surface. You MAY need to do a little bit of light spot-sanding in really rough patches, but I'd guess it would be the exception rather than the rule. And your chances of witness lines are almost negligible because the abrasive is so gentle. As long as you keep the steel wool moving and don't dig in circles on the same area over and over, you shouldn't have any problems.

Here's what I used to buff the final wax coat on all my basses, whether they are getting the steel wool/wax rubout or the higher gloss treatment.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-WP900-6-Inch-Polisher/dp/B000077CPT

Let me know what else comes to mind...

Lonnybass

 

[SGD Lutherie]

You can get the same look with Watco Dainish oil, and you don't have to continually touch up the wax, because it's an actual film/oil finish. I've tried the wax/steel wool thing and it would look dull after a while.

 

[roberthabraken]

Rob-

You nailed it, this exactly the way you want to do it for the lowest-risk, most foolproof high quality result...

-Rub out with wax only
I will start right away with Minwax and 0000 steel wool to apply the wax. The wax fills up the lower areas and makes it flat, also lubricating the steel wool. The steel wool will make the finish dull / satin.
I wipe of the wax if there should be too much on there anywere.
Maybe I could buff it up a little with a cotton cloth?

Judging from your description, and the photos/video, you have been EXTREMELY diligent in applying even coats with little dust build-up or other weird things happening. Way more than me.

In reviewing it all - I doubt you'd need to do ANY sanding to get the result you want.

And you're absolutely right, the wax can be buffed up to a shine once you've rubbed out the surface and it has a chance to harden a little. Think of it like waxing a car - it goes on all cloudy and kind of splotchy, but after 20 minutes of hardening up on the clear coat it is buffed to a beautiful "wet-look" shine.

Don't forget, the steel wool/wax method will dig into all the little brush strokes and blend it together into an even-looking surface. You MAY need to do a little bit of light spot-sanding in really rough patches, but I'd guess it would be the exception rather than the rule. And your chances of witness lines are almost negligible because the abrasive is so gentle. As long as you keep the steel wool moving and don't dig in circles on the same area over and over, you shouldn't have any problems.

Here's what I used to buff the final wax coat on all my basses, whether they are getting the steel wool/wax rubout or the higher gloss treatment.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-WP900-6-Inch-Polisher/dp/B000077CPT

Let me know what else comes to mind...

Lonnybass

Superb Lonny! Thanks again for the good info.

I will go for my first option based on your feedback. Having a bit of a hard time sourcing the Minwax (I could order it overseas but I'd have to wait a few weeks and pay twice the price of the wax itself on shipment costs), but I'll find an alternative for sure.

I have been diligent, yes, and the amount of dust nibs is minimal, but the coat before the last one got a lot brush strikes in it. If that wouldn't have happened, I would be very happy with the result. Now, I hope the wax'll do it's magic .

Planned to do the final buffing by hand, but that Black & Decker doens't look all that expensive.. mmmm....

I have one more question, just to verify: do you dip your steel wool patch into the can with wax, and then apply the wax on the bass with the steel wool? Everytime you'd notice being short of wax, getting some more from the can? That's how I understood you apply it. Or do you apply the wax with a cloth or so first to cover the whole surface and then rub it in with the steel wool?

You can get the same look with Watco Dainish oil, and you don't have to continually touch up the wax, because it's an actual film/oil finish. I've tried the wax/steel wool thing and it would look dull after a while.

So you say one can use Danish oil _over_ a thick coat of poly varnish?

 

[Lonnybass]

Superb Lonny! Thanks again for the good info.

I will go for my first option based on your feedback. Having a bit of a hard time sourcing the Minwax (I could order it overseas but I'd have to wait a few weeks and pay twice the price of the wax itself on shipment costs), but I'll find an alternative for sure.

I have been diligent, yes, and the amount of dust nibs is minimal, but the coat before the last one got a lot brush strikes in it. If that wouldn't have happened, I would be very happy with the result. Now, I hope the wax'll do it's magic .

Planned to do the final buffing by hand, but that Black & Decker doens't look all that expensive.. mmmm....

I have one more question, just to verify: do you dip your steel wool patch into the can with wax, and then apply the wax on the bass with the steel wool? Everytime you'd notice being short of wax, getting some more from the can? That's how I understood you apply it. Or do you apply the wax with a cloth or so first to cover the whole surface and then rub it in with the steel wool?



So you say one can use Danish oil _over_ a thick coat of poly varnish?

Rob-

I can't speak to the concept of Danish oil over your varnish product (never tried it) but yeah, the wax method is pretty foolproof and a simple handheld rotating buffer like the Black and Decker is cheap and easy to get good results.

I wish I could tell you there was some fancy technique, but it's really nothing complicated to do at all.

I simply dunk the steel wool into the wax and dig into the can enought to get a nice solid glob on there. Once you press it onto the bass the glob will start to spread and then work its way into the steel wool and give you a nice spread as you are working. Once you feel like you're starting to run out of spreadable wax, simply re-load from the can and keep going. You'll be surprised at how quickly you'll be able to get the whole thing rubbed down.

With the wool/wax method, the big thing you're going to really need to be on the lookout for is something called "orange peel." Not sure if you've come across this term yet, but what it basically means is the finish has little tiny craters that resemble the outside of an orange.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=orange+peel&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=587&tbm=isch&tbnid=t8E4z1WsM4zoLM:&imgrefurl=http://www.honeynsilk.com/2012/02/candied-orange-peel.html&docid=EbX2Wb3pgQPaBM&imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cQthY4J260A/TzVpWRhzuOI/AAAAAAAABO8/cCmXhyk0QlM/s1600/IMG_4324.JPG&w=1600&h=1200&ei=01kmUdWgPIS_qQGa7oGYDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=534&vpy=274&dur=78&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=191&ty=111&sig=109560429329094553385&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=173&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,i:180

What is basically happening is that the wool isn't digging into the craters, but rather sliding over it. If that happens, you need to either work those areas a bit harder, or if it is significant, be prepared to do a light spot sand.

And of course, really good lighting is key! My workshop is lit by a number of flourescent light strips but whenever I do finishing work I always set up one or two soft yellow lights on the table to help add depth and dimension to the surfaces. Flourescent just kind of makes everything look flat and one-dimensional. And I'll try to get a look at things under natural lighting conditions as well, simply to see if I have missed anything that a couple 100w bulbs couldn't reveal.

Lonnybass

PS I'm leaving town Saturday for a week and will be offline - will send you a PM tomorrow before I go with my ### in case you run into anything bizarre!

 

[roberthabraken]

Once again Lonny, I cannot thank you enough for so much personalised info!! I owe you one.

Rob-

I can't speak to the concept of Danish oil over your varnish product (never tried it) but yeah, the wax method is pretty foolproof and a simple handheld rotating buffer like the Black and Decker is cheap and easy to get good results.

I wish I could tell you there was some fancy technique, but it's really nothing complicated to do at all.

I simply dunk the steel wool into the wax and dig into the can enought to get a nice solid glob on there. Once you press it onto the bass the glob will start to spread and then work its way into the steel wool and give you a nice spread as you are working. Once you feel like you're starting to run out of spreadable wax, simply re-load from the can and keep going. You'll be surprised at how quickly you'll be able to get the whole thing rubbed down.

Thanks. My question seems a bit superfluous, but I wanted to be sure I understood your suggested procedure completely correctly. Now, I do .

With the wool/wax method, the big thing you're going to really need to be on the lookout for is something called "orange peel." Not sure if you've come across this term yet, but what it basically means is the finish has little tiny craters that resemble the outside of an orange.

What is basically happening is that the wool isn't digging into the craters, but rather sliding over it. If that happens, you need to either work those areas a bit harder, or if it is significant, be prepared to do a light spot sand.

Good one, I'll keep an eye on that, although the actual orange peel isn't really present in my finish, but the brush strokes certainly are and I feel they could give the same effect.

And of course, really good lighting is key! My workshop is lit by a number of flourescent light strips but whenever I do finishing work I always set up one or two soft yellow lights on the table to help add depth and dimension to the surfaces. Flourescent just kind of makes everything look flat and one-dimensional. And I'll try to get a look at things under natural lighting conditions as well, simply to see if I have missed anything that a couple 100w bulbs couldn't reveal.

Lonnybass

My light source isn't that good, but I do have one flourescent light strip in my shop. However, for finishing I took a soft yellow spot out of the house to create soft light at an angle over my workpiece. This indeed helps tremendously while applying the varnish. Will do the same while rubbing out the finish.

PS I'm leaving town Saturday for a week and will be offline - will send you a PM tomorrow before I go with my ### in case you run into anything bizarre!

That's just fantastic! Where would I be without your help

All the best,

Rob

 

[SGD Lutherie]

So you say one can use Danish oil _over_ a thick coat of poly varnish?

No, that bass is just Danish oil. Wheres the poly varnish? You can see the wood pores on that bass.

Danish oil is a 'long oil' finish: a mixture of oil and varnish, predominantly of oil. A typical Danish oil is around one third varnish. Varnish is traditionally a combination of a drying oil, a resin, and a thinner or solvent.

So what you have here is oil and a resin.

I also use Danish oil under nitro lacquer to pop the wood grain:

That's catalyzed nitro lacquer. It's a thin film finish, but hard as nails.

 

[roberthabraken]

Okay thanks. I actually thought you meant that, but since I have a bass with 16 coats of varnish on it, Danish Oil isn't an option from this point onwards. I used Danish Oil on my first bass, several reasons not to this time (got yellow on maple, wanted to try something else, needed to seal for the partial dying process et cetera).

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Okay thanks. I actually thought you meant that, but since I have a bass with 16 coats of varnish on it, Danish Oil isn't an option from this point onwards. I used Danish Oil on my first bass, several reasons not to this time (got yellow on maple, wanted to try something else, needed to seal for the partial dying process et cetera).

OK, you already have a finish on the bass. I was talking about using Danish oil instead of just wax, which I have seen some people do. That's not really a finish though, and the wood gets dirty after a while.

I didn't read enough of the thread. I was mostly looking at the pictures of the beautiful basses.

 

[roberthabraken]

OK, you already have a finish on the bass. I was talking about using Danish oil instead of just wax, which I have seen some people do. That's not really a finish though, and the wood gets dirty after a while.

I didn't read enough of the thread. I was mostly looking at the pictures of the beautiful basses.

Ah that explains .. np, I understand . Applying 'just wax' isn't a real finish indeed.

 

[Lonnybass]

Rob-

Before I head out of town, I wanted to share a couple good Youtube videos that show the rubout at work. Your approach and what you find works best will probably be a hybrid of many techniques - as long as it's what works for you!




Lonnybass