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Double Bass Build tool question

#21
Matthew Tucker said:
Have you read THIS lately? :hiding:

1532545681_2b3846df49.jpg
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:eyebrow:

You are now officially on my doo-doo list.


...or:

Oh, sweet irony! :D


I've done the searches, I've checked for FAQs (not there ;)). I'm fairly well-versed with power tools, albeit a do-it-yourself kind of guy. I consider this build so very far removed from EB-making that I was actually a bit surprised to see that Chandler had recommended something like a handheld power planer. Still, I'm ignorant to this process (but learning) and wanted to clear up my confusion. I wanted to make sure there wasn't a job somewhere along the way that could only be taken care of by a power planer, and here I have my answers. Again, thank you guys for the help with this!

BTW Matthew: that is a fantastic pic. Is that gouge in the front a 7/35? What about the other?
 
#22
Paul I was stirring the pot.

The gouge in the back is a 30mm #9 pfeil gouge with the silly handle replaced with a cut-down table leg, with a cut-off 1" waterpipe ferrule. I drilled a 1" hole in the thick part of the handle and filled it with molten lead, then capped it off. helps.

The big old gouge is about 2" across, I bought it in a tool sale for $15, it needed a new handle and a lot of sharpening but now its lovely.

You could also use a router (if you like those sorts of tools - I hate dust and noise) to remove the bulk of the plates at the edges. Remember your channel (if you want one) actually goes BELOW the final edge thickness, then back up again, so what I think Chandler does (did) is to remove about 2" from the outline inwards with a power tool, giving a clean edge and a guide for the rest of the stock-removal job.

i didn't do that, I was too nervous. Chandler worked quickly - probably a bit too quickly sometimes - but his approach was basically sound, I think.
 
#23
Basschair said:
The doughnut-disks (that mpm mentioned) sounds much more attractive than the Lancelot.
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Be sure to check out the Link Removed before you buy anything. Like the Lancelot carver, it is used on a 4" angle grinder. I've used the one I have on at least a dozen tops and backs. It is not as aggressive as the Lancelot, and produces a smoother cut. I've tried the disks that mpm mentioned, but the one I used produced more of a wood powder than wood chips.
 
#24
Matthew Tucker said:
Paul I was stirring the pot.
Click to expand...

No worries :)


The gouge in the back is a 30mm #9 pfeil gouge with the silly handle replaced with a cut-down table leg, with a cut-off 1" waterpipe ferrule. I drilled a 1" hole in the thick part of the handle and filled it with molten lead, then capped it off. helps.

The big old gouge is about 2" across, I bought it in a tool sale for $15, it needed a new handle and a lot of sharpening but now its lovely.

You could also use a router (if you like those sorts of tools - I hate dust and noise) to remove the bulk of the plates at the edges. Remember your channel (if you want one) actually goes BELOW the final edge thickness, then back up again, so what I think Chandler does (did) is to remove about 2" from the outline inwards with a power tool, giving a clean edge and a guide for the rest of the stock-removal job.

i didn't do that, I was too nervous. Chandler worked quickly - probably a bit too quickly sometimes - but his approach was basically sound, I think.
Click to expand...

Those are great gouges: I'd seen one similar on Ebay a few weeks ago (like the 2"), but passed for the moment to get some planes to tune up.

I'll go the slow and easy route. I love my routers, but not for this.
 
#25
Bob Branstetter said:
Be sure to check out the Link Removed before you buy anything. Like the Lancelot carver, it is used on a 4" angle grinder. I've used the one I have on at least a dozen tops and backs. It is not as aggressive as the Lancelot, and produces a smoother cut. I've tried the disks that mpm mentioned, but the one I used produced more of a wood powder than wood chips.
Click to expand...


Well, how about on the second bass? :D
 
#26
Having spent a good part of last month carving an amazing highly figured maple back and most of this week carving a nice spruce top, I'll offer a few ideas.

The lancelot and Arbortech remove a lot of wood VERY fast (sometimes too fast); they also produce pretty crude, interrupted machine carved archings. I've used both of them and dozens of other power tool methods without complete satisfaction. I've also built using cnc machines and very modern production technology. While the accuracy is nice, the noise makes me nuts. Having tried all of them on several basses and hundreds of other instruments, I'll pass.

To the way my eye interprets grace and beautiful organic curves and arches, the only way I can consistantly get them the way I want is by carving them by hand with traditional planes and letting the natural flow and movement do their thing. Great arches and curves are much more a function of great body positioning, movement, and orientation of the object being carved than fancy equipment. I'll be the first to admit that it is slower, but it is worth the extra effort.

Even with the Luddite stamp on my forhead, I have to confess that once you get a handmade set of Christopher Laarman planes to work with every day, they are so intoxicating that nothing else really matters.

j.
www.condino.com
 
#28
Bob:

I did read the entire post. My point was that whenever I have used the arbortech or lancelot to rough carve the plates, the shape of the arch takes on a preliminary configuration that is based upon the size and shape of the power tool and the range of motion that you use to carve it with. Unless somone is very experienced, the natural tendency is going to be to refine the already partially established foundation that was set by the tools.

On the other hand, whenever I have slowed the process down and used just hand tools from the start to the end, the shape of the arch and the overall flow of the design takes on a noticably different and, to my eye, much more pleasing shape that is more accurate to my true intentions.

I carve plates all of the time, ranging from very small mandolin family up to 3/4 double basses and it is a consistant theme; the shape of the arches and the recurve in particular regularly show the influence of the tools I used.

The other very important factor for someone starting out is that you learn a tremendous amount about the wood from taking the slower appraoch. In working with 100s of students, I've never seen one initially carve a plate too thin or carve through it using hand tools. About 50% of them do make serious mistakes when they use the lancelot or other very aggressive tools.

j.
www.condino.com
 
#31
james condino said:
Bob:

I did read the entire post. My point was that whenever I have used the arbortech or lancelot to rough carve the plates, the shape of the arch takes on a preliminary configuration that is based upon the size and shape of the power tool and the range of motion that you use to carve it with. Unless someone is very experienced, the natural tendency is going to be to refine the already partially established foundation that was set by the tools.

On the other hand, whenever I have slowed the process down and used just hand tools from the start to the end, the shape of the arch and the overall flow of the design takes on a noticeably different and, to my eye, much more pleasing shape that is more accurate to my true intentions.

I carve plates all of the time, ranging from very small mandolin family up to 3/4 double basses and it is a consistent theme; the shape of the arches and the recurve in particular regularly show the influence of the tools I used.

The other very important factor for someone starting out is that you learn a tremendous amount about the wood from taking the slower appraoch. In working with 100s of students, I've never seen one initially carve a plate too thin or carve through it using hand tools. About 50% of them do make serious mistakes when they use the lancelot or other very aggressive tools.

j.
www.condino.com
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I'm happy that you have a method that makes you feel good. My point is still that on the back side, there is nothing to gain by doing it all by hand at least in the priliminary removal of the excess wood. I and and many other makers I know use spotter holes (rough graduation holes) that are several mm more than what we want our final graduation to be. Once the power carver has removed most of the excess wood, I get out my arsenal of hand, palm and finger planes to do the actual graduation. This is not a radical concept. I was shown the tool by one of the best known double bass makers in the US and I know several other professional makers who also use these tools for that purpose. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, like you, I use my hand tools and planes to form the top side of the tables. However, I see nothing particularly artistic about removing 20 lbs or more of the excess wood on the back totally by hand. As far as I'm concerned, that is just a waste of my valuable time. FWIW, I carved out the back side on my first few bass tops and backs all by hand. I see no difference, what so ever, in the final product regardless of how I choose get rid of most of the excess wood on the back side. I would rather spend that time doing careful plate graduation with my finger planes.

As my late mentor used to say - "Do you really think that Stradivarius wouldn't have used power tools if they had been available for him to use..." :)
 
#32
Bob Branstetter said:
I'm happy that you have a method that makes you feel good. My point is still that on the back side, there is nothing to gain by doing it all by hand at least in the priliminary removal of the excess wood. I and and many other makers I know use spotter holes (rough graduation holes) that are several mm more than what we want our final graduation to be. Once the power carver has removed most of the excess wood, I get out my arsenal of hand, palm and finger planes to do the actual graduation. This is not a radical concept. I was shown the tool by one of the best known double bass makers in the US and I know several other professional makers who also use these tools for that purpose. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, like you, I use my hand tools and planes to form the top side of the tables. However, I see nothing particularly artistic about removing 20 lbs or more of the excess wood on the back totally by hand. As far as I'm concerned, that is just a waste of my valuable time. FWIW, I carved out the back side on my first few bass tops and backs all by hand. I see no difference, what so ever, in the final product regardless of how I choose get rid of most of the excess wood on the back side. I would rather spend that time doing careful plate graduation with my finger planes.

As my late mentor used to say - "Do you really think that Stradivarius wouldn't have used power tools if they had been available for him to use..." :)
Click to expand...

I totally agree. I also use my Arbortech for the initial carving on the outside. There is absolutely no difference in the final result between doing this and removing all that wood by hand. If I were restricted from power-assists in my bass making, I would probably not be able to make another instrument. It's just too hard on my pre-geezer arthritic shoulders and back. The "purist" approuch is fine, but there is no benefit in terms of finished instrument quality, IMHO.
 
#33
I had a DeWalt power planer that I used to take down the center of top to height and I also used it to remove a little wood along the edges. I also used a power grinder with a chain saw type of blade on it and almost took my finger off with that one(it was a year before I could play a bass again).

So I'm back to using nothing but hand tools. It takes a little longer but I make fewer mistakes and I still have all my fingers.
 
#34
Martin Sheridan said:
I had a DeWalt power planer that I used to take down the center of top to height and I also used it to remove a little wood along the edges. I also used a power grinder with a chain saw type of blade on it and almost took my finger off with that one(it was a year before I could play a bass again).

So I'm back to using nothing but hand tools. It takes a little longer but I make fewer mistakes and I still have all my fingers.
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Martin- I'm sorry to hear of your accident, but how did you manage to do that? My angle grinder with the Arbortech blade requires both hands on the body and handle to balance and control the cut. Plus there is a safety guard over much of the cutter. My fingers don't get within 6" of the cutting blade when I'm using it.

The Arbortech Industrial cutter I use requires the same safety considerations as any other woodworking tool. You must always keep your hands away from the cutter and most important - don't let your mind wander while you are using it. That's not just for power tools. I know several luthiers who have had to go to the hospital to be sewed up after being distracted or not following basic safety procedures while using non-powered chisels and knives.

I can't imagine trying to make a bass (or cello for that matter) without having power tools like band saws, jointers, thickness planner and sanders, jig saws, routers, and Foredom tools. I did without many of them in my younger days, but like Arnold, not after entering the Geezer years.
 
#36
I don't know how the accident happened. I guess that's why they call them accidents. After getting bandaged up I went back to the shop and picked the tool up and I can't tell you how I managed to get my little finger in the way(the one on the left hand). It's beyond me how it happened. I had the guard on and in the right place and I was holding the hand grip and had my right hand around the lower part of the tool for support. Those grinders are heavy and hard to control when you start getting tired. Anyway I don't know how it happened but it won't happen again because I'm not using it.
 
#40
Jake deVilliers said:
To those of us who have spent some time in the bush working with chainsaws, the Lancelot is like a sweet little kitten. :)

Which version of the Arbortech are you using Arnold? There are quite a few different versions on their website.
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I've spent quite a lot of time with chainsaws actually. Our house is heated mostly with wood, and I have cleared many acres in my life. The Lancelot is no "sweet little kitten" to me.

I'm not sure which version of the Arbortech I have, but I've owned it 7 or 8 years, thanks to the recommendation of my colleague and friend jeff Bollbach.
 

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