Building a IEM rack, question about gear

[lostinafog]

Currently I play in two bands, one with seven people and the other with four, that are both looking to make the jump to IEM. We want to build system that will have a small footprint and that will be able to interface with front of house but leave the control of our ears in our hands. I am trying to figure out the pieces to use, but since I am not up to date on the ins and outs of various brands and such I wanted to toss my idea around on the forum get other opinions before making any purchases.

We play about half our gigs in clubs that run front of house, and the other half we bring our own mains and run everything ourselves. To help with the flexibility between the two types of gigs I figured we could get a small rack unit case and put in a pair of ART S8s. This way we can split the signal to our mixing board and to the front of house snake.

For our mixing board I was mainly looking at the Behringer XR18, this would give us the 16 channels we would need and allow us to use 6 monitor mixes, which would leave me doubled up with either the drummer, fiddle player or electric guitarist. After talking with the people in the seven person band some issues came up surrounding the lack of iPhone compatibility and connectivity issues with more than 4 devices being used at a time. It turns out that everyone in the band has an iPhone, so we were kind of banking on using those to control our monitor mixes,is there a third party iPhone app that can interface with the XR18 to allow the guys to mix their monitors? I know that I can hook up a router and get around the connectivity issue but I don't know if it is needed, since once we get everything dialed in we probably only have one or two people tweaking with their mixes at a time, not all seven of us at once.

Each member is going to be responsible for picking up their own ears, and headphone amp/pack. Three of the guys have had positive experiences using the Behringer PowerPlay P1 so odds are there will be a few of those and some other pieces here and there, so everyone will have an actual volume knob to use even if they do not have a device that can interface with the mixer. Another option is the PreSonus HP2, but not sure of any other viable options for a personal headphone amp/pack. None of us will be going wireless initially due to the cost.

All told the guitarist and I will be spending about $800 each to get this going (we are the two in both bands so that is why we are splitting the cost) most likely he will be getting a rack case, the splitter boxes, and xlr cables, while I purchase the mixer. Any advice or comments about gear listed or alternatives would be greatly appreciated!

 

[1954bassman]

My experience with Behringer HP IEM systems has not been positive compared to other brands. I found them to have low output and distort easily.

 

[1954bassman]

Also move slowly on buying all those splitter boxes and stuff. With aux sends available like they are, I can't see you needing them.

Also, make sure the mixer you get even has an iPhone app before you buy it.

 

[EastCoastThump]

Also move slowly on buying all those splitter boxes and stuff. With aux sends available like they are, I can't see you needing them.

Your XR18 auxes should get you by for the gigs where you'll be supplying FOH and self-mixing. But for the 50% of your gigs that involve working with installed PA and a house sound engineer, you'll be glad to have the transformer isolated splitters. Even if the FOH SE were willing to send you stems and had enough free auxes to do so, splitters will speed and standardize your set-up and give you better control over the final IEM mixes.

For our mixing board I was mainly looking at the Behringer XR18, this would give us the 16 channels we would need and allow us to use 6 monitor mixes, which would leave me doubled up with either the drummer, fiddle player or electric guitarist.

Do you have an idea of what those bandmates like in their IEM mix? (While I *could* deal with most shared IEM mixes, I wouldn't actively want them.) Just selfishness, perhaps, but if I were in your shoes and paying for half of this system, I'd want my own IEM mix. There's probably someone in your 7-piece band—maybe even you—who could happily blend a shared aux mix + "more me" via a Rolls PM351 or similar.

everyone in the band has an iPhone, so we were kind of banking on using those to control our monitor mixes,... I know that I can hook up a router and get around the connectivity issue but I don't know if it is needed, since once we get everything dialed in we probably only have one or two people tweaking with their mixes at a time, not all seven of us at once.

This, especially if the stage volume tends to be similar at the venues you play. Even if you play a few places that have a ton of FOH spill on stage, you can save mixes for those venues and be pretty dialed in. (Keep in mind, though, that mic choices, distances, and even amp settings may vary from one performance at Venue X to the next, so be wary of just assuming that your saved IEM mixes will be bang on.)

 

[s0c9]

I can tell you what we have and see if that helps.
We have 2 racks:

1. An X32 Producer + IEM transmitters + router. Permanently wired.
2. The amp rack w/ DSP.

#1 goes with us to ALL gigs. The amp rack only goes when we provide the PA. Two cables from #1 connect L/R mains to 2nd rack DSP inputs.

All of the venues that provide FOH that we play have splitters on their stage snakes, so we have not yet needed anything like the ART S8. But, we plan to add the Behringer S16 soon for additional input and output layers.

We take the house snake split and map to our X32 input channels. We use our own mics and DI feeds at most places so IEM mixes remain fairly static each gig, even tho house channel mapping vary. We save settings for each venue.

The "secure" router allows multiple connections and we run FOH and ALL IEM mixes thru it on iPhone, iPad and Android devices. There is a 3rd party app for the X32 series, but Behringer supports iOS, Android and PC.

Having the X32 allows us to add P16M's into the IEM equation. Going to try that with the drummer soon.. he complains about his wireless volume levels from his PSM200, so we're hoping that the CAT5 feed to the static P16M (I have 2) will solve the problem.

The only issue I see with using the P1 is you are not going to get stereo IEM mixes to your folks.. in the 7-piece band, that may be an issue. You will need a router with the XR18 (IMHO), but you could also take advantage of the Ultranet connection to use P16M's for static positions like keys and drums. Full stereo...

and.. you mentioned nothing about wireless ???


PS: one challenge with self-run IEM's is that on most consoles, you end up tapping the SAME channels being fed to FOH. That usually includes EQ and most effects. That may not be what you want.. so.. we are adding the S16 (as mentioned above) so that we can split the inputs and use Ch 1-16 for FOH and 17-32 for IEM mixes. That keeps them totally separate, so we can EQ and manage effects independently from FOH channels, and of course save settings for each venue.

 

[musicman7722]

get a decent digital mnixer that has enough channesl for the whole band and enough aux outs to satisfy the number of IEM mixes you need and then buy a poor man splitter snake. That's it.

 

[amphibol]

For your application I would consider the X32 Rack. We are using it in a 4-piece band with everyone on stereo IEM. It is a bit overkill since there are still a lot of channels, buses and outputs left over. But if you're investing in such a piece of equipment, I would encourage you to think one step bigger and take something a little more capable than the XR18, so you don't run into trouble if your six bandmates decide to go stereo or something.

 

[EarnestTBass]

My 6 member band is using the X32 rack w digital snake. 32 xlr inputs, 16 xlr outputs. Everyone mixes their own stereo monitor mix on their own smart phone. We are happy with Sennheiser IEM transmitters and receivers. Drummer and keyboard's in-ear-monitors are hardwired with single space Behringer 8 channel headphone amp bought for $150 until they decide to make larger purchase for wireless units. I am comfortable having extra headphone channels for back up and future expansion.

 

[lostinafog]

Wow thanks for all the replies and advice, it really is appreciated.

Couple quick follow ups:

My experience with Behringer HP IEM systems has not been positive compared to other brands. I found them to have low output and distort easily.

Thanks for this heads up, I tried like crazy to talk the guys out of it but so far the cheap price is swaying half of them, I'll get another shot at it next weekend before we start breaking in the new system in prep for our March gigs. Going to do some digging on viable alternatives with the guitar player this weekend to hopefully get people on a good track.

Do you have an idea of what those bandmates like in their IEM mix? (While I *could* deal with most shared IEM mixes, I wouldn't actively want them.) Just selfishness, perhaps, but if I were in your shoes and paying for half of this system, I'd want my own IEM mix. There's probably someone in your 7-piece band—maybe even you—who could happily blend a shared aux mix + "more me" via a Rolls PM351 or similar.)

We've never all used IEM together, I've been on the other side of the sound board for each person when we were in the studio but I was not mixing so I was only focused on the parts that I was hearing. Most likely sharing situations would be myself and the drummer, myself and the fiddle player (since he doesn't own a device to mix on his own), or electric guitar player (the person forking out the other half) and the fiddle player. The two singers are divas and already demand their own monitor mixes, which was half of our stage volume issues, and the accordion player needs his own mix so we don't go crazy from too much accordion Since I am the only one with molded IEM I have a good shot of being by myself since my volume will be different, which means the fiddle player player gets stuck with the electric guitar/Mando/Banjo mix. Which all in all isn't too bad since they are trading riffs a lot of the time and need to work out their parts in practice.

The only issue I see with using the P1 is you are not going to get stereo IEM mixes to your folks.. in the 7-piece band, that may be an issue. You will need a router with the XR18 (IMHO), but you could also take advantage of the Ultranet connection to use P16M's for static positions like keys and drums. Full stereo...

and.. you mentioned nothing about wireless ???

Yeah for the larger band we will be going mono, there just isn't enough money to get the x32 rack and a digital snake, I wish there was, but maybe if I win the lottery.
As for wireless, none of the guys are willing to invest the money for a decent wireless system and all of our instruments are wired as well so it was one less investment fight to have. I am trying to get the guys to take what we make playing gigs to reinvest in gear but sometimes it is hard to do.

get a decent digital mnixer that has enough channesl for the whole band and enough aux outs to satisfy the number of IEM mixes you need and then buy a poor man splitter snake. That's it.

Ideally I am trying to avoid a 'snake' because of hauling issues, I have a little Honda Civic that has a hard enough time holding my amp and bass, adding a snake could be difficult unless it is like a 2 foot one. I have tried to look for a cheap splitter box but I didn't find anything that was any cheaper than the ART S8s.

 

[musicman7722]

I am in a 4 piece band and use a Dl1608 mixer. I run 4 mixes. I also carry a 30' - 12 channel snake. It isn lightr and really keeps the stage clean. I run it around the side of the band and drop it in front of the kick. I stand center stage and I have two mic mechanics for my voice and the drummers. So I have a special 10' snake I made up so I can run hist voice to the in on his mic mechanic and then I have 3 cables going to the snake carrying my vox, his vox and my bass from my Zoom B3. Makes it all neat and a quick set up. i leave the mini snake connected in my floor pedal.

 

[Phantomfears]

My Rush 4 piece Tribute Band uses the X32 Rack as well with IEMs and Fractals. This allows us to either run our own PA system or just show up and plug into the house system and go!

 

[tshapiro]

We simply use a rack mount XLR splitter. The incoming lines can go to our digital mixer for our in ears while the split line goes to house. When we run our own sound we just bypass the splitter. Pretty small foot print and works great b

 

[walterw]

...6 monitor mixes, which would leave me doubled up with either the drummer, fiddle player or electric guitarist.

oh hell no. i'll use my amp and go with no monitor at all before suffering through that.

if this is the direction the band goes in, you might be a good candidate for a rolls PM351; get yourself a split off the main out-front mix, then blend it with your own bass and your own vocals to cobble together a tolerable in-ear mix.

 

[lostinafog]

My Rush 4 piece Tribute Band uses the X32 Rack as well with IEMs and Fractals. This allows us to either run our own PA system or just show up and plug into the house system and go!

Wow, my guitar player loves your rig! It is somewhat sad that I could name and quote the prices for everything in the bottom half of your large rack case

We simply use a rack mount XLR splitter. The incoming lines can go to our digital mixer for our in ears while the split line goes to house. When we run our own sound we just bypass the splitter. Pretty small foot print and works great b

Your set up pretty much exactly what I want to do, though a piece here and there might be different. With so many people in the larger band stage space is an issue so seeing your rig gives me a bit of hope

oh hell no. i'll use my amp and go with no monitor at all before suffering through that.
if this is the direction the band goes in, you might be a good candidate for a rolls PM351; get yourself a split off the main out-front mix, then blend it with your own bass and your own vocals to cobble together a tolerable in-ear mix.

Yeah, I am not too keen on the idea of anyone sharing mixes.

All these comments and suggestions have me revaluating several key components. Initially I was looking at the XR18 but since several people have brought up the issue of Stereo IEM, I have been looking at digital mixers that would allow for both bands to do that without having to make people double up. To do this I have been drooling over, I mean looking at the Mackie DL32R and the X32 Rack with a Digital Snake. Both are a large chunk of change more but they will get me 6-8 more Aux channels for monitors and more inputs.

But this makes me wonder, are stereo monitors that important?

Thanks again for the replies, I am off to feed my band mates more info on digital mixers and splitter snakes

 

[s0c9]

But this makes me wonder, are stereo monitors that important?

My answer is that it depends.. stereo isn't really "stereo" (as all your inputs except keys will usually be single channel) but is the ability to pan instruments left and right in your IEM mix.

With a mono mix you get everything on the same plane and if you have (for example) multiple guitars, many folks have trouble distinguishing between the two in a mono mix. That is compounded by many folks using single driver buds.. it's not an ideal experience, and why many folks go back to wedges.

With stereo, you can pan those 2 guitars based on their stage positions so identification is more natural and easier as that is what you would experience without the buds. Add in GOOD multi-driver buds, some judicious use of effects on the output mixes (if available) and you can have an AWESOME experience that doesn't fatigue your ears and is actually pleasing to listen to.

I have used both mono and stereo live, and have practiced at home using phones for many years (kids, late nights, etc), so I can work with either. I prefer stereo IEM mixes where possible, but I recommend noobs aim for the stereo mix. IME - better initial experience, but you could be limited to mono based on your hardware capabilities.

As I've mentioned [many times] before, DON'T CHEAP OUT YOUR IEM's, GET the BEST MULTI-DRIVER buds you can afford!!
The wireless transmitter side isn't quite as important. Think of it as the difference between a 12" Kustom stage wedge versus a JBL or Meyer (if you've ever heard one!). NIGHT AND DAY~!

 

[musicman7722]

The stereo mix is great if you have enough aux outs otherwise mono is quite usable and still beats a wedge any day of the darn week.

 

[lostinafog]

Thanks for all the advice and help! I went and ordered the system so we should be trying it all out in the next few weeks. Now the main job is keeping our singer from trying to bust the system out at a gig before we have a chance to practice with it.
Went with the X32 Rack to add the extra outs so less sharing and enables me to go stereo if I feel like it

Everyone but me has gone with the Westone 2-3 driver headphones, I went with a pair of A6's from 1964, I tried not to get them to skimp on their ears, but they wanted to go take baby steps into the IEM world.
Will be a fun few weeks of setting it all up, I am in the process of hacking my chromebook to run the Linux mix app now

 

[Motioneso]

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but just curious how your experience has been. I'm going down the same path for a four piece and looking at getting the XR18, rack mount XLR splitter and two two channel wireless transmitter systems.

 

[FuturePrimitive]

Keep in mind, if you throw a few PM16s onto the XR18 via ultranet you get stereo IEM mixes that don't use any of your AUX outs. So just adding two PM16s will give you 5 independent stereo monitor mixes. It also eliminates the lack of a native iPhone app issue for the players using the PM16s.

EDIT: Just realized this was an older post...

 

[s0c9]

Keep in mind, if you throw a few PM16s onto the XR18 via ultranet you get stereo IEM mixes that don't use any of your AUX outs. So just adding two PM16s will give you 5 independent stereo monitor mixes. It also eliminates the lack of a native iPhone app issue for the players using the PM16s.

EDIT: Just realized this was an older post...

The ONLY problem my old band found (when we used PM16's) is powering them.. The Ultranet WILL power the first PM16 in line.. but when you daisy-chain that CAT5 cable to a 2nd PM16, you need to use the accompanying wal-wart power supply to power it. Same applies to all other PM16's in the chain.
Yes, the PM16's work well in stereo.. but to be honest, I got tired of needing power for each one and running CAT5 all over the stage, then having to nurse the CAT5 cables so the clips did not break !
It was one of the drivers that nudged me (us) going wireless...