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Buyers beware!!!!
- Thread starter g4string
- Start date
How is it buyers remorse the cab was unplayable he didn't even know if it sounded good, he just needed a new cab quicker than the builder could provide.
Well, a Paypal purchase transaction would have offered "protection" that could override the refund policy, given the right circumstances.
I believe you're right that Paypal may well have said that the buyer didn't have a claim. His issue was of timing that he needed a cabinet, not the treatment by the vendor, in and of itself.
Another thing that's funny about this is that I'm pretty sure refunds are not processed immediately. My business partner got a refund just a couple of weeks ago, and I remember him having to wait several days for it to be processed (probably Paypal "playing" with the money).
Yeah, you can tell this isn't about Dr. Bass because the OP actually received a cabinet.
There are a number of good lessons here.
Honesty is not a value that can be suspended. I've walked the halls of PayPal and eBay as a vendor. By defrauding them, you hurt their employees and their business partners including me. Hey, it's just 2.9% isn't the point. Thanks for making my job harder. (Ok, not really. I've made a ton of money there, but that's not the point).
Consumer protections are there for a reason. If you are a customer who short-circuits one of your own protections, then who are you going to blame?
Sales is a story-telling exercise. Clearly this discount tactic has been employed before. Nothing wrong. But it seems that there are two customer recourse avenues that this particular tactic attempts to block. First is the PayPal buyer protection. I suspect that it's jut as much a factor as the 2.9%. Second is the ability to return since it's "discounted". The problem there is that a policy stated on a website is irrelevant to a phone transaction. Heck, I've got a policy written on a cocktail napkin in my pocket - but I can't prove I've ever communicated it to you or that you have agreed to it. A lawyer above all people should realize how insignificant his website policy is given that the customer cannot order via his website, and cannot acknowledge or agree to the policy. Furthermore, policies cannot circumvent laws governing commerce whether or not they are mutually agreed to. I don't know the details about the laws in effect, but I do know that policies are like opinions.
Bottom line is that this builder seems to make most people happy with his product, but his bank account is Hotel California. We've all dealt with businesses that are reluctant to ever refund anything to anyone. I would say that a genuine effort to make things right by delivering a product that satisfies is only half of the obligation. If a business has not delivered a product fit for use a customer should have a right to refuse continuing the transaction in a number of circumstances. Having said that, the recourse should be done under due process, and reasonable things like returning the item, inspection, and a normal AP cycle all apply. If you only have $700 then I'd recommend buying from a brick and mortar so you know what you're getting. The world isn't obligated to bankroll your backup plan while you await the resolution of your failed first transaction.
So I'm all over the map on this, I realize. Messy, just like life. Lots of stuff to learn and not everything is clear-cut.
Honesty is not a value that can be suspended. I've walked the halls of PayPal and eBay as a vendor. By defrauding them, you hurt their employees and their business partners including me. Hey, it's just 2.9% isn't the point. Thanks for making my job harder. (Ok, not really. I've made a ton of money there, but that's not the point).
Consumer protections are there for a reason. If you are a customer who short-circuits one of your own protections, then who are you going to blame?
Sales is a story-telling exercise. Clearly this discount tactic has been employed before. Nothing wrong. But it seems that there are two customer recourse avenues that this particular tactic attempts to block. First is the PayPal buyer protection. I suspect that it's jut as much a factor as the 2.9%. Second is the ability to return since it's "discounted". The problem there is that a policy stated on a website is irrelevant to a phone transaction. Heck, I've got a policy written on a cocktail napkin in my pocket - but I can't prove I've ever communicated it to you or that you have agreed to it. A lawyer above all people should realize how insignificant his website policy is given that the customer cannot order via his website, and cannot acknowledge or agree to the policy. Furthermore, policies cannot circumvent laws governing commerce whether or not they are mutually agreed to. I don't know the details about the laws in effect, but I do know that policies are like opinions.
Bottom line is that this builder seems to make most people happy with his product, but his bank account is Hotel California. We've all dealt with businesses that are reluctant to ever refund anything to anyone. I would say that a genuine effort to make things right by delivering a product that satisfies is only half of the obligation. If a business has not delivered a product fit for use a customer should have a right to refuse continuing the transaction in a number of circumstances. Having said that, the recourse should be done under due process, and reasonable things like returning the item, inspection, and a normal AP cycle all apply. If you only have $700 then I'd recommend buying from a brick and mortar so you know what you're getting. The world isn't obligated to bankroll your backup plan while you await the resolution of your failed first transaction.
So I'm all over the map on this, I realize. Messy, just like life. Lots of stuff to learn and not everything is clear-cut.
askrere said:
I don't understand what assumptions I made.
They both got fairly rude with each other.
Bottom line is builder did what he could to make things right while protecting his buisness.
If there was a refund it would not be avaiable for a few days and nit even avaiable for him to get a cab for a gig in 2 days.Ive never seen money ive received from a sale avaiable from my bank or credit union most of the time 3-5 after pa pal has it.Unless his next purchase was made from existing pay pal funds he still would cut it very very close gettibg another cab for the gig!
What I find hilarious is people who go so far to circumvent paypal fees, and have no clue what that fee covers. Who do you think is on the hook if your personal/account information gets highjacked in the course of a transaction by a hacker and you find your money gone...here's a hint....not you! It costs a LOT of money to move money electrnically and keep all that information from low life hackers who want nothing more than to defraud people.
Guess what else is expensive? Covering a chargeback/refund of a transaction done via an electronic payment. If you get screwed by a buyer/seller, it costs Paypal money to try to reverse that transation and retrieve money...it's not no questions asked, indeed it's VERY far from it, and there's a lot companies playing ball to make that money move safely, let alone reversing something when a transaction goes awry.
Those fees are there to protect both sides of a transaction. No, I don't work for Paypal, but I do work for one of the biggest players in the world in elecronic payments, and am continually amused by how people think money should just move around magically, and they should never be on the hook for any of the cost of making that happen. When something goes wrong, however, they WILL scream the loudest.
I don't agree with the seller's policy in this case, but that's also why I choose not to do business with them. The buyer also failed by using an unprotected payment method designed to alleviate these types of situations. Sorry but you played right into his policy, even if he does make most customers happy. The few that aren't have NO recourse. Then again this is a custom shop, and he can't be letting every player design a cab that they can't hear ahead of time, and then incur the cost of those coming back and having to resell them as B-stock. It simply a business plan, you don't have to like it, but it's covered pretty well on the website.
Guess what else is expensive? Covering a chargeback/refund of a transaction done via an electronic payment. If you get screwed by a buyer/seller, it costs Paypal money to try to reverse that transation and retrieve money...it's not no questions asked, indeed it's VERY far from it, and there's a lot companies playing ball to make that money move safely, let alone reversing something when a transaction goes awry.
Those fees are there to protect both sides of a transaction. No, I don't work for Paypal, but I do work for one of the biggest players in the world in elecronic payments, and am continually amused by how people think money should just move around magically, and they should never be on the hook for any of the cost of making that happen. When something goes wrong, however, they WILL scream the loudest.
I don't agree with the seller's policy in this case, but that's also why I choose not to do business with them. The buyer also failed by using an unprotected payment method designed to alleviate these types of situations. Sorry but you played right into his policy, even if he does make most customers happy. The few that aren't have NO recourse. Then again this is a custom shop, and he can't be letting every player design a cab that they can't hear ahead of time, and then incur the cost of those coming back and having to resell them as B-stock. It simply a business plan, you don't have to like it, but it's covered pretty well on the website.
noted. i should have known. i'll delete my previous posts.
btw, ive delt w/ the vendor mentioned in this thread and he refunded me immediately after he admitted that couldn't deliver in a certain time frame - and this was after 3 weeks into the project!
Thhe cab in question is a Schroeder. OP started a thread on this a week or 2 ago wondering if he was getting screwed but I can't seem to find that thread now.
I do not know who the vendor/dealer is or if it was a direct deal with Schroeder.
A lot of us said they are sending him a new cab to replace the damaged one. They agreed to do the "gift" paypal thing to avoid fees in order to further discount the cab. He knew it was a risk and took it anyway.
At that point, I would agree with the seller.
Upon further review, I think it's a bit shifty to offer up discounts without disclosing the bit about no refunds. The buyer wasn't looking at a custom cab, but rather was offered one unsolicited and was not informed of the return policy.
Moral of the story...everything has strings attached. Document your transactions, etc. This email is in writing and should be able to be used in some legal recourse if the buyer so chooses.
I do not know who the vendor/dealer is or if it was a direct deal with Schroeder.
A lot of us said they are sending him a new cab to replace the damaged one. They agreed to do the "gift" paypal thing to avoid fees in order to further discount the cab. He knew it was a risk and took it anyway.
At that point, I would agree with the seller.
Upon further review, I think it's a bit shifty to offer up discounts without disclosing the bit about no refunds. The buyer wasn't looking at a custom cab, but rather was offered one unsolicited and was not informed of the return policy.
Moral of the story...everything has strings attached. Document your transactions, etc. This email is in writing and should be able to be used in some legal recourse if the buyer so chooses.
Because this has been going on for pages now. If you're going to tell buyers to "beware", you need to tell them what to beware of or it doesn't do any good. Anybody who was reading TB over the last week or 2 could've saw that thread and knew who it was. It's like saying, "hey, I got a big secret but I won't tell you". Then why bother saying anything at all? This is no big secret.
I'm wondering what happened to that other thread or I would've linked to it. OP had already spilled the beans.
1) I only wish we had a few "dishonest" sellers like this in New Zealand. You guys are spoilt. I would deal with this seller like a shot, but I would not ( and never have) avoid paypal fees.
2) I think the only person naming the seller should be the OP. I followed a hint earlier in the thread and came to a totally different conclusion to will33. This is dangerous territory.....
2) I think the only person naming the seller should be the OP. I followed a hint earlier in the thread and came to a totally different conclusion to will33. This is dangerous territory.....
I'm not the only one that saw or posted in that other thread. I am simply passing along info that has already been posted in a public forum for anyone and everyone to read.
The OP didn't have any problem at all with posting it there, so obviously there is no problem with posting it here. Ya can't have it both ways.
The OP didn't have any problem at all with posting it there, so obviously there is no problem with posting it here. Ya can't have it both ways.
The OP pretty much disclosed the seller himself when he posted correspondence in Post #2 identifying the cabinet in question as a 212PL.
