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By the Record or " With Our Own Twist"?

ah - this subject again

I learn it like the record but, often, the band(s) don't so at least I know how it really goes and will alter the bassline as needed....I think its better to learn it exact but put into practice what PRN changes need to be made (especially if the drummer isn't playing it exact as that what impacts my basslines the most)….but at least if I know the bassline exact and arrangement specifics, I win every debate

Note-for-note can often not be a good thing in some cases, especially with vocals: Often, the original artist will add an inflection "Oooh" , "Yeah", etc because they felt that in a spot....it sucks (and humorous) to hear a cover vocalist that copies the original singer's inflections without the feel behind it - it sounds totally dishonest and funny because it sounds more karaoke than a professional singer....this has cases where it can apply to all instruments as well......I think its better to do a song wrong with feeling than an exact copy with a fraction of the emotion found in a typical Vulcan hospital gurney...just imo. of course
 
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There's an actual market for Deadhead bands that play "tribute shows" more or less note for note. So if I wanted to go out and hear my first show replicated, 04/06/71, theroretically I could. Not my cuppa at all, but if you build a market they will come, I guess.
Yeah I have heard of that. The issue we find with playing the Dead is that there are so many other groups playing the music. It is a very saturated market, and most places near me already have well established bands that they book.
 
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Inevitably, you're boxed into a corner somewhat as unless you're playing with very accomplished players who have all the latest and greatest equipment and know exactly how to get 'those sounds', most bands are going to have to shorthand the 20-odd tracks from the recording down to 3 or 4 or 5 pieces and make a recognizable rendition of the record. You hope.

I had more than a few times where I get a phone call or message, 'OK, we're ALL going to learn it EXACTLY LIKE THE RECORD', only to get there and find every stop, start, push, rest, I charted out and learned . . . . was completely out from what the drummer was doing, and the other parts as well.

For a lot of cover bands playing those places your momma warned you about . . . . . close is good enough.


That's a lot of my thoughts, too. Being in a cover band has gotten harder over the years, imo because of over-production.
Got 150 tracks? May as well use them. Go ahead and put 16 acoustic guitars on there. Go ahead and have a track for a hand clap.
 
That's a lot of my thoughts, too. Being in a cover band has gotten harder over the years, imo because of over-production.
Got 150 tracks? May as well use them. Go ahead and put 16 acoustic guitars on there. Go ahead and have a track for a hand clap.

As someone who lives regularly in the studio realm, for my band I see us as two different entities.

The first is the live power trio that writes and rehearses our songs for the live format (and for the bed tracks in the studio).

The second is the studio band that loves to extend the possibilities of our arrangements using the latitude of the studio.

If you focus on making the live versions just as good as the studio versions but shift the priorities associated with each you end up with two similar but different songs which is not a bad thing in my estimation.

Now as far as covers go - I do think it is important to make it your own, most of the original bands I love approach it this way. I tend to sometimes take it a little further - a couple of years ago I recorded I'm Afraid of Americans by David Bowie. In my arrangement I quote various other Bowie lyrics as well as even throwing in a rhythm change at the end that is lifted from another one of his songs. Whether or not a listener appreciates this is really not my concern.

That said I have never played in a strict cover band and I understand the need for stricter guidelines in that scenario - I have been lucky to have been in an original music group for nearly 20 years so it has never been a worry to me whether or not we arrange a cover note for note. However - I have only ever received kind words regarding our covers from most people who have seen us.
 
But I still think many players hide their lack of musicianship behind the "my twist" veil.

That's also possible.

I am not sure it's always due to lack of ability to play the part so much as not being good at transcribing things or working them out. If you buy sheet music of a Beatles track the bass part is probably not going to be exactly what is on the record so if someone can't transcribe what is on the record even if they could play it and relies on the sheet music then they are probably only going to be somewhere between 80 and 95% there.

I don't think I have too bad an ear but there are definitely bits of fast passages I almost certainly don't get right. In those cases I tend to go for the 90/10 rule in the sense that if a section of a part is so fast I can't completely determine what is being played then if what I am playing isn't clashing with the other parts from others in the band then the audience is unlikely to notice the difference. Maybe I should use an application to slow things down more but some of them (last time I used one, which was a few years ago) do a less than stellar job and I can't tell what note is being played anyway as it all sounds a bit out of tune.
 
This response could wind up a little long, sorry...

There is no black and white answer to this, but there is plenty of gray area in the middle for sure.

Me, personally, I'm a note for note person, and at home learning the song, that's fine. But in reality, it doesn't work that way about 97% of the time, even for those who originally recorded the song in question.

Example of that last statement:

Kenny Wayne Shepherd's "Blue On Black"
I needed to learn that song for gigs, so...
I learned the song, note for note, as it was recorded.
Then I watched a video of it live on youtube. Uh oh, the bass line is different from the original.
I then watched another video of it live, but this time the Kenny Wayne Shepherd band was using a different bassist than in the other live video. And this time the bass line was different from both the original recording, and the first live video that I had watched.

My solution to this dilemma?

I took parts of the bass lines that I liked best from the 3 versions, and combined them into one. Now, the roots were all the same, but there were little riffs here and there that were different from each other. And all 3 versions contain a "bridge" of sorts where the song drops to F near the end of the guitar solo.

To me if you're playing the basics of the song as far as chord progression, and that's for all instruments, and you include the drop to F near the end of the guitar solo, you're fine. But if you don't include that F, then you're leaving out a piece that is integral to the overall feel of the song, especially the ending of the guitar solo. I've seen bands play it both ways, and I choose to include it, and my bandmates agree with me. It's not the same without it.

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Then there are songs, that as a bassist, I feel you better play it note for note because the bass is so standout, the line so recognizable, that even a slightly inebriated bar room audience will notice.

Example: Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean"

Aside from the vocals, the bass and drums are the meat of that song. Can you get away with not playing it note for note in some parts of it? Yeah probably, but the meat of it, no, definitely not.

I've seen it done once where it was not done as the original, but yet it was as good as the original, and that was done by a soloist acoustic guitar player in Eastern Europe. That's one of those exception's, not the norm. And not something you're most likely going to run into when out gigging in bars.

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As someone who considers themselves to be a music aficionado, a note for note player, and a complete arse of a perfectionist to the point I tick people off sometimes, a lot of times actually, I have had a hard time accepting these "modifications".

No, No, No, you're doing it wrong, it's like this, now do it again or get off my lawn!

But I'm changing, and for the better I might add.

Aside from starting a band last year, and reinventing it with a new lead vocalist/rhythm guitar player in the last 6 weeks, as well as starting another band during this time that just fell through the cracks... I've written original bass lines for several local artists and their recording projects as well as going out on a Friday or Saturday night when I'm not playing, and being invited to sit in with other bands for a song or two.

I even get the occasional call, hey we're throwing something together for a show, can you play bass? Yeah? Great! Be there in 6 hours. Why do I get such calls? Because other musicians know that I'm really not an arse and I can be flexible. And that as a bass player I can hold the bottom end down however they want me to do it.

If you had told me 42 years ago, yes 42, that I would be improvising bass lines, or heaven forbid, playing a little country even, I would have told you no way and walked off laughing. Guess I'm not getting the last laugh there as I'm now doing both of those things. I started playing at a very young age, 11, and everything has been set in stone for me for so long that the last 16 months of change has made me a very different person in music and in life.

This "jamming" with such a diverse group of musicians has made me appreciate the "do what you gotta do to get it done while doing your best, and being a professional" vs "we have to do it note for note as it was recorded." It has opened up not only my playing, but my attitude about life.

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Learning to live with a gray area, and that not everything is always black n white, actually makes life easier. In music, sometimes it works for the best, even better than the original and sometimes it doesn't. Only you, and your bandmates, can decide what works and what doesn't, when it comes to covers that you do.

We play "BoB". I sing and play guitar. I play through an acoustic sim pedal. Anyhow, I have had to tell the drummer to slow the F down because he speeds up and it's a very easy drum part (I think). So I have no idea what the bass player is doing. When we do the solo, nobody seems able to count 8 times through the progression so I give a nice "woooo" before we hit that F chord. Lead guitar doesn't play an ascending solo like the recording so without that it's a mess. We still have fun.

One of the bad bands I played with had a guy that would learn 50% of the song note for note. He'd never know where to cut corners or if he got off track how to get back on so it was a chore.

I've always focused on getting the "feel" right and the rest falls into place along with signature parts.

I played with a bass player that knew stuff note for note. He was amazing but I'm sure frustrated.with the others he played with including his own drummer son.
 
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If you want your mind blown.... listen to some Nina Simone. She NEVER plays her songs the same way. She will even change the key on the fly. Her musical intelligence was so high, music was as simple as having a conversation for her.

Being part of a conversation to me is away more satisfying that hearing someone read to you.

...or Bob Dylan... I've seen him a bunch of times and he NEVER plays any of his tunes the same way twice...
 
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Jazz, is interpreted music, Country, Rock not so much. People are used to hearing the right chord changes and basslines as well as guitar solo's. Those who do not play it correctly are usually lazy players or players who think they are above the original lick.
Cover/original bands that put there own twist to a cover, I have no problem with they are making it fit their style (Van Halen did a great job doing this).

If a Jazz player played the same solo lick for lick night after night, he would loose his audience sooner than later.

My two cent with 40 years experience, go out there and lay down the groove. Spice it up a bit when needed, but dont rewrite you Rock and country players.

With due respect, all music is interpretive, unless you're the composer.
 
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...or Bob Dylan... I've seen him a bunch of times and he NEVER plays any of his tunes the same way twice...

Totally - I have seen him twice, both times he was angry Bob Dylan because the crowd wasn't responsive (a large amount left both times a little over half-way into his show).

The first time he played just piano - only going up to his guitar to get a rise out of the audience. The 2nd time - about 8 years later, he played guitar for one song at the end of his set.

At the first show the lady behind me was hammered and kept complaining to her husband that it didn't sound like the record - I mean, this is Bob Dylan, I thought it was just common knowledge that he never played songs the same way and that his live show was generally always a little rougher around the edges than his albums.

I personally loved both shows - and am happy I got to see Bob Dylan in my life time, and even happier that he was snarky angry Bob Dylan.

With due respect, all music is interpretive, unless you're the composer.

And even the composer might be approaching it from an interpretive perspective - very often, the music that I listen to filters through me into my own music. Whether or not anybody listening to it picks up on it - is a different story.

Another type of composer interpretation is just picking chords and jamming - it is moment to moment interpratation of each members playing and it can be extremely rewarding (we have had several really cool songs start this way.)
 
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You play what the composer composed

It really depends on the type of music that was composed - I mean if you are talking music that was composed for and is being performed by an Orchestra, than yes play what was composed. That is part of the experience.

If you are playing Brown Eyed Girl or New Orleans is Sinking or Texas Flood or etc. etc. etc. - change it up, nine times out of ten the band/artist that wrote it is playing it different than what is on the record, why should the goal be to recreate a moment in time when you can get much further by trying to create a new moment.

Yes there are rare occasions where you may want to quote the iconic lick in a solo, or copy a rhythmic groove pretty much verbatim but once you get going it is so much more fun to mess with a song arrangement. I think it pays the composer more respect to interpret it and not just do a paint-by-numbers copy.
 
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We play "BoB". I sing and play guitar. I play through an acoustic sim pedal. Anyhow, I have had to tell the drummer to slow the F down because he speeds up and it's a very easy drum part (I think). So I have no idea what the bass player is doing. When we do the solo, nobody seems able to count 8 times through the progression so I give a nice "woooo" before we hit that F chord. Lead guitar doesn't play an ascending solo like the recording so without that it's a mess. We still have fun.

One of the bad bands I played with had a guy that would learn 50% of the song note for note. He'd never know where to cut corners or if he got off track how to get back on so it was a chore.

I've always focused on getting the "feel" right and the rest falls into place along with signature parts.

I played with a bass player that knew stuff note for note. He was amazing but I'm sure frustrated.with the others he played with including his own drummer son.
If it feels right, chances are it's going to sound right, even if it's not note for note. Someone can play something note for note. But if they are off in the timing or the rhythm, it's not going to feel right, or sound right.
 
...I bet if you asked the bass player who actually played "the one true line" he/she wouldn't even remember the session, and if they did, it would probably be "you know, I think I would do that a bit differently if I had had a second run at it">...

And I bet you are 100% correct. Also I bet in any subsequent live performance the best players' minds are wrapped around what is making this song work "right now", and not "hey what did I play on the record..."?
 
... why should the goal be to recreate a moment in time when you can get much further by trying to create a new moment.

This, and,

Yes there are rare occasions where you may want to quote the iconic lick in a solo, or copy a rhythmic groove pretty much verbatim but once you get going it is so much more fun to mess with a song arrangement. I think it pays the composer more respect to interpret it and not just do a paint-by-numbers copy.

this. :thumbsup:
 
Well as everyone has already said, it depends..My band wants to do straight up record interpretations..exactly as it was recorded..me, I do that on most of the songs, however I do like to improvise..its the fun in playing for me so there are a couple of songs I play my own way..old time rock n roll and johnny B goode...sorry those two songs are just too boring for me to play the way they were recorded..those are the only two..I don't even think the band realizes I'm improvising it..lol..good sign right?,

I do stay true on the rest because of the bands policy and the lead guitar player once told me at a gig after we played rocky mountain way...stop improvising so much, its throwing me off..I wasn't missing the roots or important parts..I was playing those...but some guys need to rely on hearing the part the way they are used to hearing it...me, I just learn my part and play..I'm not gonna rely on other band members to cue me as to what I should be playing...does that make any sense.?...I don't know...every band is different and so are the players within that band...so the answer to the question is; it varies...