Cab sim... or not?

[Maf]

Would like to hear your opinion on the following signal chain on an effect board:

Bass ---> tuner ---> chorus ---> reverb ---> Sansamp ---> Cab sim ---> into mixer and PA

Some people say you don't need the cab sim because it amounts to 'doubling the speakers' i.e. running it through a cab sim and then the venue's PA speakers, thereby muddying the sound. I say keep the cab sim because when speaker cabs were still mic'ed up on stage it had the same effect i.e the the sound went through the physical cab on the stage and then again the the house speakers via the mic.

The way I see it the Sansamp along with the cab sim shapes the sound and the PA just makes it louder. This saves lugging heavy amps around and mucking about with mic positions that can get easily knocked out of place on a rowdy stage.

There's a fair bit of disagreement on this one and no-one seems to know if there's a right answer. What do you think?

 

[brianrost]

Sansamp already has a cab sim.

 

[FretRiff]

And it's fairly colored and can't be turned off.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

Why bother?
Ultimately you're putting your sound in the hands of someone else who has every possibility of negating everything you've done with the cab sim.
But of course, if you find Class D amps and Neodymium speaker cabs "heavy" to "lug(ging)" around, perhaps you need to spend the money on gym membership instead of cab sims?

 

[Nuisance]

If you run distortion maybe.....otherwise imho, not needed.

 

[monsterthompson]

Some people say you don't need the cab sim because it amounts to 'doubling the speakers' i.e. running it through a cab sim and then the venue's PA speakers, thereby muddying the sound.

The PA speakers are meant to be transparent full range reproduction of what is being sent to the mixer, net of any EQ done there. There’s no cab “effect doubling” there. The chain you posted has a sim doubling because a SansAmp out already has a cab sim sound baked in (as others mentioned).

 

[monsterthompson]

If you run distortion maybe.....otherwise imho, not needed.

Agreed. I’m not out gigging, but I run into a mixer and monitors at home and the only time I feel I need a sim is when I’m pushing moderate to heavy distortion/fuzz. If the sound is clean or only has a minimal amount of drive, I can generally get what I need with just EQ. Although, having a SansAmp for the sim can be nice for jumping right to a specific familiar sound without much EQ adjustment.

Since the OP mentions reverb, I generally place reverb at the end of the chain, after the sim so the reflections don’t go through filtering of the sim. Working in the DAW, I use a similar order with reverb after the sim.

 

[Wasnex]

Would like to hear your opinion on the following signal chain on an effect board:

Bass ---> tuner ---> chorus ---> reverb ---> Sansamp ---> Cab sim ---> into mixer and PA

Some people say you don't need the cab sim because it amounts to 'doubling the speakers' i.e. running it through a cab sim and then the venue's PA speakers, thereby muddying the sound. I say keep the cab sim because when speaker cabs were still mic'ed up on stage it had the same effect i.e the the sound went through the physical cab on the stage and then again the the house speakers via the mic.

The way I see it the Sansamp along with the cab sim shapes the sound and the PA just makes it louder. This saves lugging heavy amps around and mucking about with mic positions that can get easily knocked out of place on a rowdy stage.

There's a fair bit of disagreement on this one and no-one seems to know if there's a right answer. What do you think?

My preferences really should not have any impact on your decision. IMHO, Tweak your pedals and use your ears. Also have a nice conversation with your audio tech.

I generally prefer a clean, full-range sound, so I have no need for a cab SIM. In fact I don't like playing through bass cabs that are heavily voice and/or filter out the highs. Millions of people love the Ampeg 810E, but not me .

I have quite a few pedals that I bought for guitar. All of my drive pedals sound fine plugged straight into a PA. The trick is to adjust the drive pedals and EQ so my sound works in the PA. I also have a handful of classic guitar amps. If I have my pedal board dialed in to sound good through a Fender and then plug into one of my Marshalls, it doesn't sound right. I have to tweak pedals every time I change to a different style amp. Fender, Marshall, Hiwatt, Vox, Matamp all require different pedal settings.

If the pedal board is setup for one of my amps, a direct signal won't sound great through the PA without quite a bit of EQ and filtering. This is where a cab SIM or IR louder could be useful. But ideally it will be a reasonable model of my stage sound. So if I were playing guitar through a Fender loaded with JBLs, a cab SIM that models a Marshall pushing Greenbacks is probably not going to help.

 

[Chris Chong]

if you are driving the sansamp to saturation / overdrive, you can place it after the tuner, before the chorus and reverb. The chorus and reverb will sound more rich after a drive pedal.

The cab sim (I presume it comes with a DI) can be placed after the mod/rev to mixer.

 

[AgingEngineer]

I always start with this question first: what does the essential "voice of the band" sound like to you? Some bassists, and therefore their band, have a sound where a particular amp or signal chain is a core component of their sound. For example: when I think of the Winery Dogs, Billy Sheehan's amp tone is CRITICAL to what that band sounds like. If he just ran direct into the PA, it just would not be the same.

Is the voice of your band reliant on a specific amp and signal chain tone? If so, then you'll want to send that exact tone (whether through amped cabinets or cab sim) to front of house.

If the specific amp tone really isn't important, then adding the cab sim after the sansamp probably isn't worth doing. This is where you trust your FOH engineer to take your bass tone and mix it well.

Ultimately, as @monsterthompson said earlier, the purpose of the PA system is to deliver transparent reproduction of audio at a large scale, You give it the "voice of the band" and it delivers it to the crowd.

 

[Deleted member 394181]

Why bother?
Ultimately you're putting your sound in the hands of someone else who has every possibility of negating everything you've done with the cab sim.
But of course, if you find Class D amps and Neodymium speaker cabs "heavy" to "lug(ging)" around, perhaps you need to spend the money on gym membership instead of cab sims?

Well,, one reason i got tired of "lugging around" cabs is i got older, as people do, and my health changed. When i was younger neo cabs didnt exist. Then when my health changed, it wasnt the weight of my Basses, it was the cabs at the end of the night. I got to where i hated even lifting 35 lbs. My last band was not very understanding, and resented that i couldnt lift gigantic PA speakers, that were from the seventies, and refused to upgrade to lighter systems. Working out wouldnt have improved my situation. Some people cant help it. I would have loved just plugging into an amp sim.

 

[AgingEngineer]

Well,, one reason i got tired of "lugging around" cabs is i got older, as people do, and my health changed. When i was younger neo cabs didnt exist. Then when my health changed, it wasnt the weight of my Basses, it was the cabs at the end of the night. I got to where i hated even lifting 35 lbs. My last band was not very understanding, and resented that i couldnt lift gigantic PA speakers, that were from the seventies, and refused to upgrade to lighter systems. Working out wouldnt have improved my situation. Some people cant help it. I would have loved just plugging into an amp sim.

Same boat here! 25 years ago I had a rig that was as heavy (and nearly as big) as a refrigerator. Today I take either a small pedalboard DI or my Line 6 Helix. I literally walk into a gig with a bass in one hand and a backpack with my pedalboard or Helix. 5 minutes and I'm set up to go. 5 minutes to pack up and go. Tone out front is better than I ever got with all those amps. It's more consistent from show to show since I don't need to debate mic'd amp or direct signals with inexperienced soundguys. They all get an XLR from my board, no zero exceptions. Same tone, every show. The crowd gets the sound they paid for and are happy.

And I've saved a TON on chiropractor bills. lol

 

[JamesGrant]

I’d put the reverb last if it were me (depending on how it sounds!).
But yeah - it’ll work. The sound tech will probably add a wad of compression at the desk and ‘shape’ the EQ to suit their needs for the mix/room.
Personally I’ve settled on no cab sim but loads of people do, and get good results.

 

[Aloe]

uhm, if you have HPF and LPF on mixer board, that already is sorta cab-sim. tune with HPF to the room, use LPF to sound more 'vintage' if that's what you need.

ask the person, who runs the sound, how he prefers it, if your goal is to sound good.

 

[RattleSnack]

Same here, just HPF and LPF on band's digital mixer and done. LPF just above 5.5KHz for nice and round slap/pop, HPF according to room, but usually around 60Hz for indoor club gigs.
I did try some finer fully parametric EQ presets for something like cab sim, but in the and all I need is on my pedalboard preamp and bass guitar.

 

[J Wilson]

My first thought would be that IF you have someone qualified and experienced out front running sound ( and is familiar with the sound the band is after), what does he want from your send into the mix.

I've known more than a few house engineers that would prefer to leave your effects on stage and not up the snake.

 

[DuluthDank]

If the sound person isn't capable of applying a bit of EQ to your sound to make the direct signal sit in the mix better, you have bigger problems on your hands that a cab sim won't fix.

 

[Zbysek]

You don’t need a cab sim with Sansamp…

 

[walterw]

Would like to hear your opinion on the following signal chain on an effect board:

Bass ---> tuner ---> chorus ---> reverb ---> Sansamp ---> Cab sim ---> into mixer and PA

yeah, sansamp already has cab sim, no need for another one

also, reverb on bass? unless it's for a specific effect on a specific song (or the band is trying for some sort of gothy, shoegaze-y sort of sound), that might be best avoided

 

[Windreaper]

Bass cabs are WAY more colored than PA speakers, which should be considered to be fairly neutral, HARD disagree with anyone suggesting overlap there. Don't need one with a SansAmp, but a cab sim generally makes dirt sound better. Not really necessary with a clean tone IME.