• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

cabinet frequency response

#21
We counsel to think again when someone lusts after lows that dance club PA's can't get near. There is a disconnect in the discussion because bassists young and old believe they have been listening to fundamentals when they haven't. Many have never heard a strong low E fundamental never mind anything lower.

When I use subs I have to lower the EQ on the bass lows or the room fills up with undesireable murky stuff.

When I play a 40Hz sine through my bass cabs I get overtones of 40Hz but no actual 40Hz. Even 60hz isn't strong, so my low B isn't that flash.
 
#22
Certainly. Not saying what is right or wrong, just that fundamentals add to the music, are hard to "work with" and might add problems to the "sonic space" on stage.
Cutting the lowest range makes life simpler, as in less complicated (and with less nuances).
 
#23
bearjew said:
Ok, this can't be just me. I play a 5-string bass, and sometimes it's in Dropped A tuning, which is 27.5Hz. I have not found a SINGLE cabinet that goes below 28Hz at -10dB. I want 27.5Hz FLAT!!! I know it can be done. Does anyone know of a cab that does this already, or do I have to make one?

BJ
Click to expand...

You A) don't need 28Hx and B) don't want it to be flat to 28Hz. If you want it to sound like a bass, you don't want this. Most stereo speakers don't do 28Hz, either. If they do, they don't handle enough power at that region to be useful and that's a large part of the reason speaker manufacturers don't make speakers that are capable of 20-30Hz.

Your speakers need to be capable of this before even thinking about what the cabinet will do. Then, you need to make sure the combination of the cabinet AND speaker will do this without puking. Then, you need to deal with cabinet volume- a large cabinet will do this far better than a small cabinet because the port used in a small cabinet will be too long to be practical- if it's a smaller diameter, it will be noisy and if it's larger diameter, it will be too long.
 
#24
AlexanderB said:
To OP: While most people will stubbornly tell you not experiment I can confirm that low fundamentals are audible, have sonic impact, are really challenging to reproduce and can be very addictive. :bassist:
Do not people here on this board know of things like HipHop, Rave, organ music, car audio competition etc. One wonders... ;)
Click to expand...

I was just about to comment that I think a lot of the attraction for 20Hz from a bass rig is because of the person hearing a car stereo that can easily handle it. Having done car audio and competition systems, as well as having judged systems for the IASCA sound quality part, I know it's audible, but for bass guitar, it's not practical.
 
#26
The Acme cabs do exactly as they are advertised. I owned a Low B2. However you may discover, due the the phenomena illustrated by the Fletcher Munson curves, as volume goes up the fundamentals will start to over power the harmonics and you will lose note definition. You will have to cut back the bass or boost the mids to get note definition back. IMO, if you start playing at louder levels, the tradeoffs are not optimal if you have a cab that can go flat down to the fundamentals of your bass. It's sort of like owning a truck with amazing towing capacity but never towing anything but still paying for the low gas mileage.

Here are some interesting threads on that.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/reproduce-fundamentals-your-rig-yes-no-748594/
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/defining-notes-906087/
 
#27
There seems to be some interesting talk, but getting really OT.

Duke put it best so far, I think...if you want a bass cab that is FLAT at 27hz you can have it. It'll be massive and you'll need to throw a ton of watts at it.
 
#28
I've seen several similar post about this. I play a 7 dropped to g#beadgc.

So here's the deal. All the sub40hz hype is pure hype. Why do I say that??? In reality most people listen to music in their car more than anywhere else. My car for example has 4 6x9s plus 2 high frequency speakers on each side of the dash. It has no subwoofer. Yet I listen to all kinds of music like korn(low a),after the burial(low g#)Mnemic (low f#) even Jauqo IIIx the low c# theory which is almost a whole octave lower than a standard tuned 5. All notes are audible and sound good. The reason for this is harmonic overtones. When you play a single note your not just hitting 30hz or 40hz or whatever the fundamental is. Your hitting a lot of frequencies. If you don't believe me think about how eq works. If I'm wrong then adjusting a knob that's effecting say 500 hz would have absolutely no effect on a low b or drop a note. But it absolutely does effect the tone.

Now here's where it gets silly. Say you had a rig that produced those super low frequencies. You go to play a gig and in reality the lows are almost always filtered or EQed out below 40hz completely in the PA for a tighter sound or maybe just to keep stuff from rattling as bad. Lets even imagine that they weren't.... do the speakers in the PA subs actually produce those frequencies??? You hear you bands album through you car stereo that doesn't have a sub and your tone sounds completely different than the way it sounds standing in front your rig. The reason for is because your tone was dialed in to include those frequencies that are now gone.

My advice is to take into consideration PA abilities and especially car stereos where most people will really listen to your music. Low tuned cabs aren't all about range. For example I can get my tone out of either an ampeg 410he or a 410hlf. With the hlf I have to cut a lot of low frequencies down to get a tight sound coming out of the cab. The problem with that is then my xlr out signal is thin as hell. So you have to consider that. Yeah I could use the hlf and a mic but then what's the frequency range of the mic? Remember if at any point your signal goes through something that filters out those frequencies they are lost anyways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: downlowuponit
#29
Blah blah blah...

You want to go low? Get a ACME, fEARful, Barefaced Bass, Audiokineses, or BFM stack. They are all different flavors, but will all go lower than 98% of the "commercial" crap on the shelves at GC.

In response to those that say content that low isnt useful, Im calling BS. Even their own statement of "The first harmonic is what matters" proves this. You want to play some note in the 20-30hz range, then you better have good content in the 40-60hz range. If you dont, you are missing not only the fundemental, but the harmonic as well.
 
#30
acmebass said:
Allow me to summarize:

1) A frequency of 30 Hz is clearly audible. This is not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.

2) Very low frequencies are part of the musical content of your performance, and even if they weren't clearly audible, which they are, that would be no reason to deny your audience the tactile experience of feeling the low bass in the room.

3) The fact that the fundamental can be attenuated with respect to the 2nd harmonic is irrelevant to this discussion. A decent loudspeaker should reproduce the various frequencies in their proper proportions, regardless of the characteristics of those proportions.

Having said that, I might directly address the concerns of the OP, who said, "I have not found a SINGLE cabinet that goes below 28Hz at -10dB. I want 27.5Hz FLAT!!! I know it can be done. Does anyone know of a cab that does this already, or do I have to make one?"

The answer to your question is that you are very unlikely to find a commercially produced cab with that capability. It could easily be made, but would have to be very large, or very inefficient. It will be a tough nut to crack. I would recommend that you look for a model which uses a sealed enclosure, such that you could then EQ whatever low-end into the thing you want. I'm not particularly knowledgeable on Bag-End equipment, but my loose understanding is that they make some cabs sort of like that, and perhaps suitable for someone in your situation.

Sorry to not be more helpful, but at least I have an opportunity to address some of the nonsense people spread on these boards.

Thanks,
Andy
Click to expand...
It's too bad Andy's expert advice contradicts the endless TB "30 Hz angels dancing on a pin" baloney.
...don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up....

The OP didn't ask for suitability to task.
He asked for a cabinet that goes Flat to 27 Hz, and all he got was the usual TB dogma.

To the OP, you can indeed build such a cabinet. Been there, done that.
You can juggle any two of the three: Loud, Low, or Small.
Low + Small = Inefficient
Low + Loud = Very Large

How large: a bass horn flat to 27 Hz requires a mouth perimeter of 41 Feet.
How small: Eminence LAB12 in 3.63 cubic feet.

As to the bass guitar myth:
I have Link Removed that show the fundamental and 2nd harmonic having the same amplitude at low E / 41 Hz.

Unlike the "I read it on the Internet" crowd, I do all my own measurements so I understand the method and the results.
This chart shows the amplitude of 41 Hz and 82 Hz are nearly identical, not some -11db as shown in the link above.

The proof of low E is very easy.
When my test P-bass runs through full range speakers, dropping the 41 Hz signal with a graphic EQ cuts the nuts off the low E sound.
Measurements indicate the 82 Hz response remains unchanged.
Low E is obviously audible and adds quality to the sound.
 
  • Like
Reactions: downlowuponit
#32
It all comes down to personal preference. When we were early beta testing the ML112's we initially had a 3012LF it tuned much lower as I wanted the low B to really sound deep. Every one of our beta testers came back at us with "I would gladly give up some of those really deep lows, for some more punch up higher". Most of the players simply preferred a leaner, tighter low end to one that extended very deep and low. We ended up with a different driver altogether and a higher tuning before our testers felt we hit a good balance of solid low end with plenty of definition. Almost identical experience with our initial testing of the ML115.

I'm not debating the need to reproduce the fundamentals for whatever tuning may be involved, but simply noting my experience with players not necessarily finding that ability for a cab to go super deep all that useful in a club setting.
 
#33
Waves MaxxBass works
It's being used in live sound everywhere.
Real bass takes a lot of power. A lot of cabinets. It is also incredibly hard to sound proof against. Outside the venue all you hear is bass. Some venues with nearby rooms you don't want bass leaking through.

Maxxbass arranges the harmonics, like pipe organs makers have done for centuries, to let you hear lower fundamentals at higher levels than they actually are.

Maxxbass is not for everyone, or all the time, but if you want low lows, it's something you should try.
 
#34
I personally find that reproducing the first harmonic works fine for my needs.

If I needed mega sub lows I'd go with some woofers with low enough Fs in a big box, tuned low, and EQ them.

The big thing is that you need to give up on an all-in-one system. You're looking at a few specialized things:

1) You need a top cab that can produce midbass on up. A high end PA 12 will do this to enough volume for any bass rig. Look at the Peavey Impulse 12s, or RCF or Mackie for powered.

2) Bottom cab that'll handle serious output at 27.5hz. Most high end PA subs are about -10db @ 35hz. You're probably going to build this yourself. Look for woofers with seriously low Fs. Dayton makes some that are usable. Model them. A vented box is the way to go here imho.

3) A DSP solution - I'd recommend starting with a Crown XTI 2000 here, as it has all the DSP you need and can bridge into enough wattage. You MUST have a steep high pass around 20-25hz to keep your woofers safe. Use a powered PA top so you don't need to power the main as well. Run the sub out from the powered top to the input of the Crown.

The XTI 2000 for example can also add all the parametric or shelving eq needed to boost your 27.5hz back up without boosting your 20hz. That's the key.
 
#35
You know, it didn't hit me last night like it did now, but Andy's post to me comes across to me as a shot, like he's saying I'm letting my audience and band down by not using cabs that go super low. I know that selling cabs is the name of the game here so it's casual, but if were me, I'd probably find a better way to do it than telling me I must set the bar pretty low.
 
#36
bgavin said:
It's too bad Andy's expert advice contradicts the endless TB "30 Hz angels dancing on a pin" baloney.
...don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up....

The OP didn't ask for suitability to task.
He asked for a cabinet that goes Flat to 27 Hz, and all he got was the usual TB dogma.

To the OP, you can indeed build such a cabinet. Been there, done that.
You can juggle any two of the three: Loud, Low, or Small.
Low + Small = Inefficient
Low + Loud = Very Large

How large: a bass horn flat to 27 Hz requires a mouth perimeter of 41 Feet.
How small: Eminence LAB12 in 3.63 cubic feet.

As to the bass guitar myth:
I have Link Removed that show the fundamental and 2nd harmonic having the same amplitude at low E / 41 Hz.
Click to expand...

Typical TB dogma, eh? How would someone whose bass rig keep his sound separate from the floor tom(s) and kick drum, organ bass pedals or low notes from a synth? Having three instruments fighting for bandwidth gets ugly, fast.
 
#37
JimmyM said:
You know, it didn't hit me last night like it did now, but Andy's post to me comes across to me as a shot, like he's saying I'm letting my audience and band down by not using cabs that go super low. I know that selling cabs is the name of the game here so it's casual, but if were me, I'd probably find a better way to do it than telling me I must set the bar pretty low.
Click to expand...

Um, yes, that's exactly what I was saying. It has nothing to do with your musical ability, or your value as a human being. You are letting your audience down by denying them the experience of a legitimate bottom end. Sorry if it seems like a "shot." You're probably right- I could have found a better way to say it.

But as I read the posts from the anti-bass crowd, I sense a real emotional investment is believing things which aren't true, and your post was loaded with that stuff.

Now, if you simply say, "I don't like low end, but prefer a rig with a higher cutoff, because, as a matter of taste, I don't like fundamentals," I can buy it. But the bizarre explanations I hear, as a means of justifying that opinion get really tiresome.

In fact, as I said, matters of taste don't have to be justified. If that's what you like, God bless you. But as a matter of physics, "I haven't gotten any complaints" doesn't do it for me.

So, anyway, my issue isn't as much that you don't care for low bass, which is strange to me, but that those who have that opinion as a matter or taste tie themselves in knots trying to justify that view, and coming up with some really strange explanations in the process. It doesn't nave to make sense to me, and doesn't need to be justified. But if you say things which don't make sense, be ready to be called on it, by me, or hopefully, somebody else.

Thanks,
Andy
 
#38
WingKL said:
The Acme cabs do exactly as they are advertised. I owned a Low B2. However you may discover, due the the phenomena illustrated by the Fletcher Munson curves, as volume goes up the fundamentals will start to over power the harmonics and you will lose note definition. You will have to cut back the bass or boost the mids to get note definition back. IMO, if you start playing at louder levels, the tradeoffs are not optimal if you have a cab that can go flat down to the fundamentals of your bass. It's sort of like owning a truck with amazing towing capacity but never towing anything but still paying for the low gas mileage.

Here are some interesting threads on that.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/reproduce-fundamentals-your-rig-yes-no-748594/
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/defining-notes-906087/
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting something on the subject which actually makes sense.

Of course the FM curves are in play regardless of what rig you use, and the need or desire to change your settings would apply in any case, if you're sensitive to them. It has to do with where you choose to start, if you catch my drift, and how loudly you play as a matter of routine, I suppose.

Thanks,
Andy
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back