thanks for sharing that info! The Shapeoko machines seem to be a good value.
Dust collection is a big concern for me, I'm still trying to demystify all the available options. What unit did you go with?
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thanks for sharing that info! The Shapeoko machines seem to be a good value.
Dust collection is a big concern for me, I'm still trying to demystify all the available options. What unit did you go with?
Your assumptions are correct; metalworking requires a stiffer (not necessarily heavier) machine and the tooling becomes more specialized. Also, choices need to be made regarding speeds, feeds, climb or conventional milling, tool selection and use, etc. Milling wood or plastic is relatively easy by comparison.
You can do this. Working in shops for many years I've seen all types of people running mills, and not a lot of washouts. With the right equipment and a bit of study, you can probably do all the projects you mentioned. and more.
Tom
I use Linux exclusively, including for all my CNC work. My current tool chain for most stuff is:
FreeCAD or Kiri:Moto or my own Python scripts -> CAMotics -> bCNC -> my own CNC running GRBL
I realized early on that for many highly specific tasks I was better off writing my own G-code so I could have ultimate control over tool speed and direction, ramps, clearing algorithm etc. Sometimes it was difficult (like writing the compound radius, multiscale, twised fretboard script) but eventually it does exactly what I want it to do and I don't have to fight with someone else's CAM.
My costs to date are just the few hundred dollars I spent buying the hardware to build the CNC itself with no software costs at all. If you are willing to spend the time learning there are some good free options out there for building your own bass parts with a CNC.
Good luck!
Stepping back a bit, if you want to get into machining metal hardware for instruments, you really need a different CNC machine than what you want for cutting wood bodies and necks. The machines made for routing wood can do some limited metal working, but they just aren't made for it.
For a small shop to get into CNC metalworking of small parts, the practical thing is to buy a Mill/Drill machine. These are relatively small machines, like 800 lbs, with a 1 1/2 hp spindle that runs on 120 volts. They are like a cross between a small milling machine and a heavy drill press. You can buy one new for $1000-$1500, and I see used ones for sale for as low as $500. These "little" machines are just the right size for machining instrument hardware.
I bought this green Mill/Drill back in 1989 for $400, and it served as my only milling machine for over 30 years. I made all of the metal hardware for all of my basses on this machine. These days I have several other milling machines here too, but the green Mill/Drill is still my main workhorse.
Anyway, there are now companies selling kits to convert these mill/drill machines into full CNC operation. Servo motors, digital scales, control box, machine software. Not real expensive. If you buy a used Mill/Drill and convert it with one of these kits, you'll have a nice small CNC milling machine for around $2000.
I suggest that you separate your CNC machine needs. Get a good benchtop CNC router for your woodworking, and convert a small milling machine to CNC for your metalworking. One machine which does both well will be much, much bigger and more expensive.
Edit: The other good reason for going this route is that you can do it in stages, learning along the way. Buy a used Mill/Drill now, and spend a year messing around with it, learning to be an old-fashioned machinist. Make up small quantities of metal hardware using your brain, eyes, and hands to steer the machine around. That's very valuable training.
Meanwhile, learn the CAD and machine software to run a small benchtop CNC wood router. Then, further down the road, upgrade the mill/drill to CNC and start steering it by computer. Then you can sit back in your chair and watch both machines run.
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Thanks for your input Bruce.
What you you said makes sense, I see now that I am better off separating those needs. The shop I've been building my bass at has some manual machines, a Bridgeport Mill, a Hardinge lathe and another mill from Little Machine Co. I'll be using them to make a set of headless hardware. Unfortunately the owners are generally too busy right now to really teach me to use them, so the hardware project will be all the experience I'll get until I have something of my own.
I agree with Bruce. Getting the hang of manual machining is invaluable in the learning of CNC. You'll acquire a feel for what's happening hands-on, and when you start programming (or need to troubleshoot a program), you'll be comfortable by then with +/- XYZ movement if you aren't already.
As he said, 2 semi-specialized machines are desireable as opposed to one general purpose one. IMO a good metalworking machine big enough to do the wood parts of an instrument would be (expensive) overkill.
Personally, I'd start with the router when you move to CNC because a lot of your work will be 2D, probably, and woodcutting will give you the experience and satisfaction without much concern over chiploads, coolant considerations, tramming your machine to +/- .0005, etc. I have both a 3 axis mill and a 3 axis router, and would not consider running model airplane wings on the mill (even if I could) or precision carbon steel parts on the router.
When you do CNC machining, if you're not just importing programs, it's good to have a CAD program if you are doing your design work intended for CNC. Not only will you find it's as easy as sketching on a restaraunt table cloth, once you learn it, but will give you the coordinates you need to write a program, if that is your goal.
Good luck, CAD/CAM seems a broad subject and indigestable at times, but a step-at-a-time approach works pretty good.
Tom
As he said, 2 semi-specialized machines are desireable as opposed to one general purpose one. IMO a good metalworking machine big enough to do the wood parts of an instrument would be (expensive) overkill.
Personally, I'd start with the router when you move to CNC because a lot of your work will be 2D, probably, and woodcutting will give you the experience and satisfaction without much concern over chiploads, coolant considerations, tramming your machine to +/- .0005, etc. I have both a 3 axis mill and a 3 axis router, and would not consider running model airplane wings on the mill (even if I could) or precision carbon steel parts on the router.
When you do CNC machining, if you're not just importing programs, it's good to have a CAD program if you are doing your design work intended for CNC. Not only will you find it's as easy as sketching on a restaraunt table cloth, once you learn it, but will give you the coordinates you need to write a program, if that is your goal.
Good luck, CAD/CAM seems a broad subject and indigestable at times, but a step-at-a-time approach works pretty good.
Tom
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Yes, to add to what Tom said, If I were setting up a CNC-based shop for building basses in limited production, I'd plan on 3 CNC machines. The first would be the CNC router, 3-axis, with about a 18" x 24" bed. That would be for bodies, and making up fixtures and tooling. The second would be a small metalworking milling machine, 3-axis converted to CNC. It would only need a 6" x 4" x 3" working area.
The third CNC machine would be a custom router specially made for making necks. I'd assemble it from the commercial components that are available. It would be long and narrow, with a 4th Roll axis. The three regular axis would be X-36", Y-6" and Z-3". The 4th Roll axis would be horizontal, along the length. A long cradle, in bearings at both ends, that could roll 360 degrees. This would be a much more efficient way to shape the complex contours of an instrument neck. Using the cylindrical side of a normal router bit, rather than the rounded end of a cove bit. The cutting geometry in the programming would be simpler, and the surface would be smoother with fewer passes and machine-minutes.
Investing in those three CNC machines, rather than one big all-purpose machine, would pay off down the road in reduced labor hours. You can be sitting there in the shop, with your feet up, watching all three machines making parts at the same time. If you had one big machine, you'd be sitting there three times as long, and have to constantly stop and change over the tooling and setup.
The third CNC machine would be a custom router specially made for making necks. I'd assemble it from the commercial components that are available. It would be long and narrow, with a 4th Roll axis. The three regular axis would be X-36", Y-6" and Z-3". The 4th Roll axis would be horizontal, along the length. A long cradle, in bearings at both ends, that could roll 360 degrees. This would be a much more efficient way to shape the complex contours of an instrument neck. Using the cylindrical side of a normal router bit, rather than the rounded end of a cove bit. The cutting geometry in the programming would be simpler, and the surface would be smoother with fewer passes and machine-minutes.
Investing in those three CNC machines, rather than one big all-purpose machine, would pay off down the road in reduced labor hours. You can be sitting there in the shop, with your feet up, watching all three machines making parts at the same time. If you had one big machine, you'd be sitting there three times as long, and have to constantly stop and change over the tooling and setup.
I will add one more thought to what @Bruce Johnson said: you don't actually need a physical CNC or mill to start learning CAD/CAM/CNC. You can start in a few minutes by literally editing a text file with some G-code and then loading it into a simulator to see, in real-time, what a CNC would do. I mainly use CAMotics for this, which is convenient and free, but you can choose whatever tool suits you. Simulators are both faster and safer than a real CNC since you can't damage stock, tools, machines etc. on a simulator!
I'm still fascinated by my machine doing its thing. I'll end up putting on the earmuffs and just watching it run. Lately, I've learned to do other stuff while it's running.
They are supposed to save you time, but you'll spend just as many hours out in your shop as before. Of course you'll get a lot more precise work done...
But, you'll also spend hours doing design work at night, when you should be sitting on the couch drinking wine with the wife.
Rick
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that was the normal outcome from deep diving into CNC, plus the large cash expenditure to get there.
When I've thought about doing it in the past I always remember what Jason Romero (the high end banjo builder) wrote about the neck carving process. After he became proficient with the rasp and spokeshave he realized that the 20 minutes he spent on shaping a neck was some of the quietest and most relaxing parts of working in the shop.
Agree. Having a CNC carve my neck profile isn't high on my list of things to do. I may never do that on a CNC.
The first thing I had my CNC do after I built it was a compound radius ruled surface multiscale fretboard. Precise angles and shapes are the kinds of work a CNC excels at.
adam.beauchene
Commercial User
I use LinuxCNC to drive my XZero Raptor 3-axis router. It is currently set up with a Bosch 1617 router and upgraded collet from Precisebits. I use Rhinoceros pretty much exclusively for CAD, and I use a couple CAM programs for my G code--CamBam and Meshcam. I like CamBam for 2.5D stuff, and I like MeshCam for 3D, although the latest version of MeshCam looks pretty good for both.
Well! Very nice to hear from you. I stalk you on the internet periodically.
Hope you're well 
Time to revive this thread! I’ve managed to get my hands on a CNC machine. Well, only technically - the deal has been agreed on but money hasn’t exchanged hands just yet.
Met a guy (through my girlfriend’s bowling league of all places!) selling his old machine because he is upgrading. For the 2k he is asking, it’s a lot of machine.
It’s an Open Builds 1515 w/ water cooled spindle and a VFD. Here’s the full specs as per his listing:
**Key Upgrades & Features:**
Of course, I need a lot more than just the CNC machine to build an instrument. Next few months are going to be very expensive!
Met a guy (through my girlfriend’s bowling league of all places!) selling his old machine because he is upgrading. For the 2k he is asking, it’s a lot of machine.
It’s an Open Builds 1515 w/ water cooled spindle and a VFD. Here’s the full specs as per his listing:
**Key Upgrades & Features:**
- **Linear Rails Upgrade:** Enhanced precision and smoother motion for all your projects.
- **NEMA 23 High Torque Motors:** Powerful motors ensure accurate and reliable performance.
- **X-Axis Stability Enhancement:** Improved stability for consistent results.
- **OpenBuilds High Z Upgrade:** Increased Z-axis travel for greater versatility.
- **Dust Shoe for 80mm Spindle:** Efficient dust collection to keep your workspace clean.
- **Zeroing Puck:** Quick and precise tool height setting every time.
- **Interface Tool:** Easy control with an intuitive interface.
- **VFD (Variable Frequency Drive):** Provides precise control over spindle speeds for optimal cutting performance.
- **Complete Computer Setup:** Includes a fanless Windows 11 computer perfect for shop environments, along with a two 23-inch monitors on adjustable mount
- **Accessible Electronics:** All machine electronics, including the VFD, are neatly mounted and easily accessible for maintenance or tweaks.
- **Heavy, Stabilized Table:** Comes with a sturdy, heavy-duty table designed to support the machine and minimize vibrations for utmost precision.
Of course, I need a lot more than just the CNC machine to build an instrument. Next few months are going to be very expensive!
Took your advice and spent some time getting familiar with a manual mill. I made a set of hardware for my headless bass. I’ve still got a lot to learn but I’m happy to report that the hardware is at least functional
It holds its tuning well and I’ve had no issues with it aside from the fact the intonation is finicky to adjust. The next iteration will incorporate some intonation adjustment screws.
It sounds like you’re past this but Tim Sway sells a set of guitar and bass CNC plans if you’re compatible with that software and need a place to start.
DIY Bass Guitar Digital Plans! VCarve9.5 and newer
The DIY guitar kit was so popular, I'm excited to be listing its sister DIY Bass Guitar Kit! I designed this kit for you to have multiple digital formats of all the parts needed to make it and customize to your liking. I also created it in an old version of Vectric VCarve (v9.5) as entirely 2D...
newperspectivesmusic.com
Looks like a nice setup! Seems like a good deal. That’s an amazingly high z travel! I bought a SienciLabs LM 30x30 machine last year. It’s nice to have a “2nd helping hand” besides myself. The most time consuming part is learning CAD/CAM software.
I get by with Rhino 3D, some Fusion 360, and a few others. Not mastered by any means though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Agree, wrapping your head around the 3D modeling is a bit of a leaning curve, but very satisfying once you’ve mastered it.
