Calling all theory nerds!!

[bass theory]

I haven't really looked into it yet, but I find it intriguing to think about composing European style music using different Asian scales. This thought came to me while listening to my Chinese wind chimes. there are only six notes rather than 7 and the spacing is different.

I imagine it would work best on fretless instruments, but that would lose the challenge of making a bass, and possibly a guitar fretted and tuned for one of the many Chinese or Japanese musical scales then composing Rock style music using these musical forms. just think a whole new world of tonics, harmonics, and chords, and progressions to experiment with.

Besides, that would be a good excuse for 1 more bass in the collection. And everyone knows you can't have enough basses let alone too many.

I also have considered the possibility of a six note scale with all steps even. I know it would sound like Cacophony to ears trained to European scales. But could the human mind adapt to find this mathematically based system natural and even pleasant.

Yep even I think these ideas are silly when it comes right down to it.

 

[Rfan]

You can pretty much play anything with a,V7. It's pretty bulletproof.

 

[Benjamin Earl]

(Devil's advocate - LOL)
Some musicians would say, "Hey, you are just playing the notes of the C major scale".
The 3rd, 5th, and 7th - those are the GIVEN chord notes.
The 9th with the Maj7 is, also, a "nice gift", at least in my world.
It's not like playing an Eb pentatonic scale over D7.
Could you elaborate more about your statement?

Sure, np! You are correct, playing G Major Pentatonic is "just playing notes of the C major scale". However, you are also NOT playing some of the notes in the C major scale. Using this type of scale substitution is meant to limit the notes you play. It is a phrasing cheat (for lack of a better word). In this example it allows you to play the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th (2nd), and 13th (6th), but it limits you from playing the root & 4th. In my opinion, limiting the notes I play makes my melodic content more concentrated or focused. It give is a specific "color", "flavor" or "sound". I agree this particular scale substitution is very normal sounding, but it makes me play very different than just playing C Ionian (major). Some scale substitutions sound very harmonious and others sound more dissonant.

Devils advocate back-at-ya... Any scale is part of the chromatic scale, so isn't playing *insert scale/mode here* just playing notes from the chromatic scale? Why not just play chromatically 100% of the time?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In my opinion, limiting the notes I play makes my melodic content more concentrated or focused. It give is a specific "color", "flavor" or "sound".

Totally agree.
Some people could interpret your statement as, "Don't (try to) play the root and (avoid) the 4th while soloing over a Cmaj7 chord".
If we borrow some old George Russell's ideas and substitute the C major scale with the "correct" one - the C Lydian scale, then, we could use the D major pentatonic scale to solo over the Cmaj7 chord.
D major pentatonic scale does not have the Root or 4th of the C major scale.

D major pentatonic scale.

Why not just play chromatically 100% of the time?

That's a very good question.
Why not indeed?
LOL.

 

[Benjamin Earl]

Some people could interpret your statement as, "Don't (try to) play the root and (avoid) the 4th while soloing over a Cmaj7 chord".

Yes! This is exactly what this scale substitution example does. However, it is easier for me to think about the pentatonic scale substitution to achieve this sound. I have spend many hours over the years practicing the pentatonic scale, and it is helpful to leverage my pentatonic muscle memory.

[QUOTE="Whousedtoplay, post: 24748313, member: 243483"...we could use the D major pentatonic scale to solo over the Cmaj7 chord.[/QUOTE]

This is a good one too. It is very similar, but instead of Ionian it is the Lydian sound.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It has a real jazzy sound to it. It's what I've been up to most recently. Anyone else try this? Other ideas to try? Thanks.

I think you could explore the following beginner Jazz musician's chord vocabulary.
Just take a "normal" dominant chord - C7, and start applying just "normal and simple" triads over it.

You can read it from here.
https://jazzpianoschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Step-5-Upper-Structure-Triads-Dominants.pdf

Or from here:

http://www.opus28.co.uk/uslines.pdf

And a simple C7b9 chord gives you some "simple" soloing choices of Eb, F#, and A triads.

 

[misterCRUSH]

I think you could explore the following beginner Jazz musician's chord vocabulary.
Just take a "normal" dominant chord - C7, and start applying just "normal and simple" triads over it.


View attachment 4092537

You can read it from here.
https://jazzpianoschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Step-5-Upper-Structure-Triads-Dominants.pdf

Or from here:

http://www.opus28.co.uk/uslines.pdf

And a simple C7b9 chord gives you some "simple" soloing choices of Eb, F#, and A triads.

View attachment 4092543

Thanks!!! I printed that out!!

 

[Groove Master]

The Major scale fits pretty much everywhere

 

[bass theory]

Yep even I think these ideas are silly when it comes right down to it.

there is one question which I would like an answer to that I doubt any Theory master can answer.
What is it about music that makes the human mind find music more pleasant played in scales in which some notes are a whole step apart and others are just a half step.

I am sure it has something to do with the discussions in this thread about the chromatic scale with missing notes. But I'm not asking about what works, I am asking why it works.

I seriously doubt there is an answer, but who knows. This has puzzled me since I was about 10 years old and first learning the most fundamental construct in music theory, scales. logic would make one think that even spacing would seem more natural, but it doesn't work that way.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The Major scale fits pretty much everywhere

I've heard somewhere, if you dig deeper, you could find a minor scale in the Major one.
Amazing.
LOL.

 

[Benjamin Earl]

there is one question which I would like an answer to that I doubt any Theory master can answer.
What is it about music that makes the human mind find music more pleasant played in scales in which some notes are a whole step apart and others are just a half step.

I am sure it has something to do with the discussions in this thread about the chromatic scale with missing notes. But I'm not asking about what works, I am asking why it works.

I seriously doubt there is an answer, but who knows. This has puzzled me since I was about 10 years old and first learning the most fundamental construct in music theory, scales. logic would make one think that even spacing would seem more natural, but it doesn't work that way.

Hmm... interesting questions. The following video is a fairly unbiased explanation on why we use a 12 note semitone system in Western music. I was taught this information in a similar way, and I think he did a good job explaining the details.



I would guess that the scales built from this system were chosen based on preference throughout history. Our ears/brains are accustomed to hearing the more common combinations of notes. I also think this may be why we musicians are intrigued by scales that deviate from the most common scales. Some listeners may like a more simple sound, and some may like a more exotic sound. Is this where music preference comes from? How does rhythm and dynamics affect how we perceive these sounds? There is way too much to unpack here!

 

[LBS-bass]

Any of you theory nerds interested in looking at a score to verify the best key sig. for me? I've looked at it in a number of different keys but there are a number of sharps, flats and naturals no matter what I do. DM if you'd like to help. I know what key I think it's in, but I'd be interested in knowing more about why it's showing all these notes that aren't within the key.

 

[LBS-bass]

Any of you theory nerds interested in looking at a score to verify the best key sig. for me? I've looked at it in a number of different keys but there are a number of sharps, flats and naturals no matter what I do. DM if you'd like to help. I know what key I think it's in, but I'd be interested in knowing more about why it's showing all these notes that aren't within the key.

Well, I have no takers, so I will send it off to the 'real' pianist the way it is; he never has any trouble with my best guesses on stuff.

 

[Ewo]

Any of you theory nerds interested in looking at a score to verify the best key sig. for me? I've looked at it in a number of different keys but there are a number of sharps, flats and naturals no matter what I do. DM if you'd like to help. I know what key I think it's in, but I'd be interested in knowing more about why it's showing all these notes that aren't within the key.

Just saw your query from yesterday. My .02:

What does your ear say about the key center? What's the I chord, in other words. Are there places the piece modulates (moves to another key center)? Those are the questions I'd consider in figuring the key signature.

As for having a large number of accidentals, that can easily happen if there's chromaticism in the melody, or chord extensions in the harmony. For instance, a piece in C major can need an F# notated if there's an extension on the I chord--a maj7#11.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Well, I have no takers, so I will send it off to the 'real' pianist the way it is; he never has any trouble with my best guesses on stuff.

I think if you post it right here, then, our Forum would help you for sure.
It's a Forum of IDEAS, OPINIONS, etc...
If it's PERSONAL, then, it's just business.

 

[LBS-bass]

Just saw your query from yesterday. My .02:

What does your ear say about the key center? What's the I chord, in other words. Are there places the piece modulates (moves to another key center)? Those are the questions I'd consider in figuring the key signature.

As for having a large number of accidentals, that can easily happen if there's chromaticism in the melody, or chord extensions in the harmony. For instance, a piece in C major can need an F# notated if there's an extension on the I chord--a maj7#11.

My ear says it's in F#minor, and when I use software to look at the score in different keys, that's where i have the fewest accidentals. So I figure that's right, but there are a few chords that still look really wonky and I guess that's just how I write. Thanks

 

[LBS-bass]

I think if you post it right here, then, our Forum would help you for sure.
It's a Forum of IDEAS, OPINIONS, etc...
If it's PERSONAL, then, it's just business.

OK. I won't do that because experience has taught me that sharing something with a larger group here becomes a feeding frenzy of criticism and an orgy of differing and inconsistent opinions about how things should be changed, and the song is written, lead vocals and three part harmonies are sung, and I paid a bass player to play a nice funky bass line under it already. I'm just waiting for the piano player to free up some time to do his magic so I wanted to give him the best possible score, not interested in inviting a crisis of self-doubt over something that's almost finished, but thanks anyway.

In other words, when I ask a question in a certain way, there's a reason.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I paid a bass player to play a nice funky bass line under it already.

You are a very good bass player yourself.

sharing something with a larger group here becomes a feeding frenzy of criticism

Maybe, just the simplified chord progression?

 

[LBS-bass]

OK. I won't do that because experience has taught me that sharing something with a larger group here becomes a feeding frenzy of criticism and an orgy of differing and inconsistent opinions about how things should be changed, and the song is written, lead vocals and three part harmonies are sung, and I paid a bass player to play a nice funky bass line under it already. I'm just waiting for the piano player to free up some time to do his magic so I wanted to give him the best possible score, not interested in inviting a crisis of self-doubt over something that's almost finished, but thanks anyway.

In other words, when I ask a question in a certain way, there's a reason.

That all being said, when the song is finished I'll be happy to share the audio and the score and let people tell me why it works the way it does. I'm open to learning, just not the rando stuff that pops up here when people want to give unsolicited advice about stuff you didn't ask for.

 

[LBS-bass]

You are a very good bass player yourself.



Maybe, just the simplified chord progression?

Thanks for the compliment. Sometimes serving the song means stepping back and realizing when you're not the person for the job. This song needed some real funkification on the bottom end and I don't have the chops for what I wanted to hear there. The guy I hired did an amazing job; I am so happy with his work!