Calling all theory nerds!!

[misterCRUSH]

I would like to start a thread in which ideas can be brought up and discussed, which may lead to other ideas and such. I'll start. I have been playing around with the mixolydian b6 scale over dominant chords. It has a real jazzy sound to it. It's what I've been up to most recently. Anyone else try this? Other ideas to try? Thanks.

 

[Lownote38]

I haven't used that scale much, but I've used "Spanish Phrygian" a lot. It's the Phrygian mode with an added major 3rd. When you have a V7 - i progression, that scale is awesome for leading back to the minor one. You can also start on the minor 7th of that scale and play a diminished arpeggio, and it will fit harmonically. Very cool scale! It can be used on V7b9b13 chords, or V7#9 chords.

 

[misterCRUSH]

I haven't used that scale much, but I've used "Spanish Phrygian" a lot. It's the Phrygian mode with an added major 3rd. When you have a V7 - i progression, that scale is awesome for leading back to the minor one. You can also start on the minor 7th of that scale and play a diminished arpeggio, and it will fit harmonically. Very cool scale! It can be used on V7b9b13 chords, or V7#9 chords.

that's very cool!! thank you!! I am now heading up to record a piano vamp with V7b9b13 chords in it to walk over!! This is exactly what I was hoping for!

 

[Bob_Ross]

I haven't been particularly diligent about documenting this, but one thing that I've been trying to get my ears wrapped around well enough so that I can codify them and then deploy them with the same ease that I do modal stuff (apologies to anyone who doesn't find modal stuff easy, sorry!) is a catalog of offset pentatonics against a dominant chord.

iow, it's probably safe to say we all have an idea of what a D major pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like. Likewise -- or perhaps even moreso -- we all have an idea of what a D minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like.

But some of my favorite improvising musicians will use major and minor pentatonic scales whose root [sic] note is offset from the root of the chord they're blowing over. E.g., an Eb minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord...or an Ab major pentatonic scale over a D7 chord. John Scofield, Michael Brecker, John McLaughlin, I think some McCoy Tyner...great examples of this approach.

I know I can use those combinations, and I know generally the sort of piquant, tension-laden "out" sound they will produce...but I really want to get my ear tuned into exactly how those different offsets sound so that I can choose the specific combinations that yield the precise degree of "outness" for any given situation.

As a project it's mostly a gigantic disciplined ear-training exercise with some concise note-taking, so I have no excuse other than not getting in the woodshed and just getting down to it.

 

[misterCRUSH]

I haven't been particularly diligent about documenting this, but one thing that I've been trying to get my ears wrapped around well enough so that I can codify them and then deploy them with the same ease that I do modal stuff (apologies to anyone who doesn't find modal stuff easy, sorry!) is a catalog of offset pentatonics against a dominant chord.

iow, it's probably safe to say we all have an idea of what a D major pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like. Likewise -- or perhaps even moreso -- we all have an idea of what a D minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like.

But some of my favorite improvising musicians will use major and minor pentatonic scales whose root [sic] note is offset from the root of the chord they're blowing over. E.g., an Eb minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord...or an Ab major pentatonic scale over a D7 chord. John Scofield, Michael Brecker, John McLaughlin, I think some McCoy Tyner...great examples of this approach.

I know I can use those combinations, and I know generally the sort of piquant, tension-laden "out" sound they will produce...but I really want to get my ear tuned into exactly how those different offsets sound so that I can choose the specific combinations that yield the precise degree of "outness" for any given situation.

As a project it's mostly a gigantic disciplined ear-training exercise with some concise note-taking, so I have no excuse other than not getting in the woodshed and just getting down to it.

That sounds like a fun and challenging project!! best of luck and HAVE FUN!!

 

[Spin Doctor]

I haven't been particularly diligent about documenting this, but one thing that I've been trying to get my ears wrapped around well enough so that I can codify them and then deploy them with the same ease that I do modal stuff (apologies to anyone who doesn't find modal stuff easy, sorry!) is a catalog of offset pentatonics against a dominant chord.

iow, it's probably safe to say we all have an idea of what a D major pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like. Likewise -- or perhaps even moreso -- we all have an idea of what a D minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like.

But some of my favorite improvising musicians will use major and minor pentatonic scales whose root [sic] note is offset from the root of the chord they're blowing over. E.g., an Eb minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord...or an Ab major pentatonic scale over a D7 chord. John Scofield, Michael Brecker, John McLaughlin, I think some McCoy Tyner...great examples of this approach.

I know I can use those combinations, and I know generally the sort of piquant, tension-laden "out" sound they will produce...but I really want to get my ear tuned into exactly how those different offsets sound so that I can choose the specific combinations that yield the precise degree of "outness" for any given situation.

As a project it's mostly a gigantic disciplined ear-training exercise with some concise note-taking, so I have no excuse other than not getting in the woodshed and just getting down to it.

Gary Willis is big on superimposing familiar pentatonics in unfamiliar ways. It's a huge part of his sound. I've spent a little time on working through these ideas, but not enough yet to make a real difference. As you say, it's largely a matter of "hearing" the effects of playing in that way.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I would like to start a thread in which ideas can be brought up and discussed, which may lead to other ideas and such. I'll start. I have been playing around with the mixolydian b6 scale over dominant chords. It has a real jazzy sound to it. It's what I've been up to most recently. Anyone else try this? Other ideas to try? Thanks.

Yeah, I'd say I'm a theory nerd, lol. But it has a purpose. I want to know it and be able to execute it.

Mixolydian b6... Also known as the "Hindu scale", it is the 5th mode of the Melodic Minor. Melodic Minor is one of the "go to" scales in jazz, which will give you that outside sound. Some even call it the "Jazz Minor", but it's almost always used over dominant chords. In the past, I'd spent some time thinking about how to use this scale and I codified (to use Bob's term) some of that in the attachment I've included. But I never went anywhere with it until kind of recently. Concerning that attachment, whenever I come across theory info, I like to write it into my own words so I can really understand it, at least theoretically.

So anyway, there's a couple of ways to approach using the MM scale. One is to take the modes individually, as the OP is doing, and use them that way over the chords they apply to, or you can just learn ways to break up the scale into interesting lines and realize that one line can be used over multiple chord types AND/OR you can move the line around by different intervals from the root of the dominant chord which will give you various alterations of that chord.

It was learning how to break up the scale to be usable and interesting that I really got into using it, because before that, the scale felt "too bulky" and I had no way of making it part of a song. I may talk about how I go about that later, but it's a recent development in my playing and I'm still sorting it out. The attachment only talks about how to move a single line intervalically.

 

[misterCRUSH]

AND/OR you can move the line around by different intervals from the root of the dominant chord which will give you various alterations of that chord.......

holy moly!!! thanks!!!!!

 

[Spectrum]

Yeah, I'd say I'm a theory nerd, lol. But it has a purpose. I want to know it and be able to execute it.

Mixolydian b6... Also known as the "Hindu scale", it is the 5th mode of the Melodic Minor. Melodic Minor is one of the "go to" scales in jazz, which will give you that outside sound. Some even call it the "Jazz Minor", but it's almost always used over dominant chords. In the past, I'd spent some time thinking about how to use this scale and I codified (to use Bob's term) some of that in the attachment I've included. But I never went anywhere with it until kind of recently. Concerning that attachment, whenever I come across theory info, I like to write it into my own words so I can really understand it, at least theoretically.

So anyway, there's a couple of ways to approach using the MM scale. One is to take the modes individually, as the OP is doing, and use them that way over the chords they apply to, or you can just learn ways to break up the scale into interesting lines and realize that one line can be used over multiple chord types AND/OR you can move the line around by different intervals from the root of the dominant chord which will give you various alterations of that chord.

It was learning how to break up the scale to be usable and interesting that I really got into using it, because before that, the scale felt "too bulky" and I had no way of making it part of a song. I may talk about how I go about that later, but it's a recent development in my playing and I'm still sorting it out. The attachment only talks about how to move a single line intervalically.

View attachment 4090626

View attachment 4090627

Written on a green military log book, too. Nice.

 

[misterCRUSH]

I haven't been particularly diligent about documenting this, but one thing that I've been trying to get my ears wrapped around well enough so that I can codify them and then deploy them with the same ease that I do modal stuff (apologies to anyone who doesn't find modal stuff easy, sorry!) is a catalog of offset pentatonics against a dominant chord.

iow, it's probably safe to say we all have an idea of what a D major pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like. Likewise -- or perhaps even moreso -- we all have an idea of what a D minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord sounds like.

But some of my favorite improvising musicians will use major and minor pentatonic scales whose root [sic] note is offset from the root of the chord they're blowing over. E.g., an Eb minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord...or an Ab major pentatonic scale over a D7 chord. John Scofield, Michael Brecker, John McLaughlin, I think some McCoy Tyner...great examples of this approach.

I know I can use those combinations, and I know generally the sort of piquant, tension-laden "out" sound they will produce...but I really want to get my ear tuned into exactly how those different offsets sound so that I can choose the specific combinations that yield the precise degree of "outness" for any given situation.

As a project it's mostly a gigantic disciplined ear-training exercise with some concise note-taking, so I have no excuse other than not getting in the woodshed and just getting down to it.

I was playing around with this tonight!! lots of groovy sounds

 

[drumvsbass]

I've recently been playing around with the Dim6th scale and its interesting chord functions. Lot's of 'jazz' colors in there.

 

[FritzM]

Gary Willis is big on superimposing familiar pentatonics in unfamiliar ways. It's a huge part of his sound. .

This was a Coltrane concept. Zawinul did this all the time. Gary Willis is awesome!

 

[Spin Doctor]

I've recently been playing around with the Dim6th scale and its interesting chord functions. Lot's of 'jazz' colors in there.

Barry Harris is the man... I'm pretty sure people take a knee before they go in to study with him.

 

[Benjamin Earl]

But some of my favorite improvising musicians will use major and minor pentatonic scales whose root [sic] note is offset from the root of the chord they're blowing over. E.g., an Eb minor pentatonic scale against a D7 chord...or an Ab major pentatonic scale over a D7 chord. John Scofield, Michael Brecker, John McLaughlin, I think some McCoy Tyner...great examples of this approach.

I know I can use those combinations, and I know generally the sort of piquant, tension-laden "out" sound they will produce...but I really want to get my ear tuned into exactly how those different offsets sound so that I can choose the specific combinations that yield the precise degree of "outness" for any given situation.

As a project it's mostly a gigantic disciplined ear-training exercise with some concise note-taking, so I have no excuse other than not getting in the woodshed and just getting down to it.

I've been working on this as well. My brain works well by comparing scale tones to chord tones. For example, over a Cmaj7 chord I play G Major Pentatonic. This gives me the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th and no root. This gives me a pleasing choice of extended chord tones without resolution. It is kind of like working through scales with intervals. You are skipping notes on purpose, which give you a more potent melodic palette.

I also often find a line or melody that fits into a pentatonic "form" that doesn't easily conform to the tonic pentatonic scale. I determine which "out" pentatonic scale the melody fits into (based off a different tonic), then I can expand that melody more easily with the same melodic color/flavor/sound by playing the "out" pentatonic scale in different positions on the fretboard. It helps me with variation, but also helps me keep the vibe/sound consistent to the original melody or idea.

 

[misterCRUSH]

I've recently been playing around with the Dim6th scale and its interesting chord functions. Lot's of 'jazz' colors in there.

I completely enjoyed that!! headed to practice and apply!!!!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Cmaj7 chord I play G Major Pentatonic. This gives me the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th and no root.

(Devil's advocate - LOL)

Some musicians would say, "Hey, you are just playing the notes of the C major scale".
The 3rd, 5th, and 7th - those are the GIVEN chord notes.
The 9th with the Maj7 is, also, a "nice gift", at least in my world.
It's not like playing an Eb pentatonic scale over D7.
Could you elaborate more about your statement?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I haven't used that scale much, but I've used "Spanish Phrygian" a lot. It's the Phrygian mode with an added major 3rd. When you have a V7 - i progression, that scale is awesome for leading back to the minor one. You can also start on the minor 7th of that scale and play a diminished arpeggio, and it will fit harmonically. Very cool scale! It can be used on V7b9b13 chords, or V7#9 chords.

I'm trying to memorize the mode names of that Spanish Phrygian.
LOL

 

[mambo4]

My most recent exploring wasn't looking for new scale but new chord progressions

I took closer look at this particular negative harmony scheme

C <> Cmin
Dmin <> Bb
Emin <> Ab
F <> Gm
G <> Fm
Amin <> Eb
Bdim <> D dim​

functionally it looks like this

I <> i min
ii <> bVII
iii <> bVI
IV <> v min
V <> iv min
vi <> bIII
vii dim <> ii dim​

These mappings are exactly the inversions of the intervals
a major 3rd interval inverts to a minor 6th
a iii chord inverts to a bVI chord

organized on the circle of fifths descending:

vii dim <> ii dim
iii <> bVI
vi <> bIII
ii <> bVII
V <> iv
I <> i
IV <> v​

common cadences mirrored

ii V I <> bVII iv I
I V iv IV <> I iv bIII v
I vi ii V <> I bIII bVII iv
I IV V IV <> I v iv v​

What I discovered is that many popular chord progression, when mirrored, sound like 90's grunge rock.
Consider I V iv IV <> I iv bIII v :
"Don't Stop Believing'" is the harmonic mirror of "Smells Like Teen Spirit"!

I also have been experimenting building cadences around descendign 4ths isntead of 5ths,
based on a Jacob Collier interview where he asserted that a plagal IV-I cadence has the same 'gravity' as a V-I.
The mirrored harmony scheme actually maps straight onto this idea (bIII bVII iv I)

 

[mambo4]

That "diminished 6th" scale is described as "a major scale with a note in-between the 5th and the 6th", whichi have generally seen referred to as the "Major Bebop" scale. Probably from Abersold books.

 

[misterCRUSH]

My most recent exploring wasn't looking for new scale but new chord progressions

I took closer look at this particular negative harmony scheme

C <> Cmin
Dmin <> Bb
Emin <> Ab
F <> Gm
G <> Fm
Amin <> Eb
Bdim <> D dim​

functionally it looks like this

I <> i min
ii <> bVII
iii <> bVI
IV <> v min
V <> iv min
vi <> bIII
vii dim <> ii dim​

These mappings are exactly the inversions of the intervals
a major 3rd interval inverts to a minor 6th
a iii chord inverts to a bVI chord

organized on the circle of fifths descending:

vii dim <> ii dim
iii <> bVI
vi <> bIII
ii <> bVII
V <> iv
I <> i
IV <> v​

common cadences mirrored

ii V I <> bVII iv I
I V iv IV <> I iv bIII v
I vi ii V <> I bIII bVII iv
I IV V IV <> I v iv v​

What I discovered is that many popular chord progression, when mirrored, sound like 90's grunge rock.
Consider I V iv IV <> I iv bIII v :
"Don't Stop Believing'" is the harmonic mirror of "Smells Like Teen Spirit"!

I also have been experimenting building cadences around descendign 4ths isntead of 5ths,
based on a Jacob Collier interview where he asserted that a plagal IV-I cadence has the same 'gravity' as a V-I.
The mirrored harmony scheme actually maps straight onto this idea (bIII bVII iv I)

This is fascinating!! I'm motivated to get better at piano so I can record a vamp to play along with with my bass! I saved it all to a word document, one that is growing as this thread gets longer!!