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Can a sense of time be learned?

S

Schpeaker

Jun 4, 2023
70
148
#1
I just did a gig with a singer who has a poor sense of time. It's not a tempo issue, it's just where we are in the measure and when to come in. He doesn't have any formal training. But neither do I, and I don't have to think about it at all, so I really struggled to explain to him how I (or any of our other band members) do it. I mean, I can try and explain that you start singing on the "a" of the 5th bar but that's not how I perceive a song, so it's a lot of work for me to reverse-engineer my instinct and lay it out for him for every single verse of every single song. FYI we're not doing any crazy prog time signatures, it's mostly 4/4 stuff.

He ended up doing a ton of work memorizing specific hooks in some instrument melody or a drum accent that he would use as a cue. That worked pretty decently at our final rehearsals leading up to the show. On stage, it all went back to poopie and the rest of us were left covering for his mistakes.

It's sad because he has a good voice and is an excellent frontman. He's also an awesome fellow, always willing to take feedback, and willing to work to improve himself. But I'm not sure what to tell him. Should I encourage him to take voice lessons? Instrument lessons (he plays a little guitar)? Can one learn timing, or is it an innate ability so if you don't have it you're completely screwed? If there's no hope for him I'd rather give him the harsh news instead of false hope.

Do any of you have experience working with someone who had a hard time with timing, but improved over time? FYI we're all in our 40s to there's no more brain cells left to develop, they're all dying slowly.
 
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#4
sean_on_bass said:
Anyone can learn anything in theory. Why exactly are the songs so hard for him to hear when to come in? most of us learn that by listening to music. is this original material?
Click to expand...

Ironically, these are some of the WORST vocalists IME. They learn material via recordings, karaoke, etc. but it does not translate well in ensemble settings. In all fairness, I'll listen to a track once or twice to rough-out a map.

Riis
 
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#5
I don't mean this in a snarky way, but: Listening and paying attention.

Internalize the entire song, not just the vocal parts. Learn to hum along to the whole thing. Be engaged even when not singing, for instance moving your body to the music.

Instrument lessons would be great. Most of the best vocalists I've worked with, either a) Play an instrument; or b) have formal music training. Playing an instrument would help them hear the instrument parts, and internalize them.
 
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#6
sean_on_bass said:
Anyone can learn anything in theory. Why exactly are the songs so hard for him to hear when to come in? most of us learn that by listening to music. is this original material?
Click to expand...
Nope, covers of songs he knows very well. He just hears songs differently, I think? He can't place where in the measure a vocal phrase needs to start. If he hears the *exact* instrumentation in the background he can use cues to start singing. But he has no internal sense of 4, 8 and 16 beats going on in his head, I think.

It's really hard for me to explain or empathize. Once I've heard a song a few times all I need is a metronome and some chords to start singing (badly, but in correct time). He, on the other hand, can rush and start a phrase on the 4 of a previous measure when he should have waited for the 2 of the next measure. Although the general tendency is to always start on the 1 of a measure.

As an example, in the Mamma Mia chorus after the breakdown, he would probably start the phrase "Yes, I've been broken hearted" on the 1 instead of waiting for the 2. I never learned how to do any of this formally, it just comes instinctively to me. Same with all of our other band members. So it was very hard for us to explain things to him. We would all yell things like 1 2 3 4, 1 NOW!! and the poor guy would "get it" based on all the murderous looks we were giving him, but then fail to do it the next time around.

@fdeck Thanks. I hope you're right. He needs to hear songs differently. I'll encourage him to keep his guitar lessons going, and to also start some formal training.
 
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#8
Schpeaker said:
I just did a gig with a singer who has a poor sense of time. It's not a tempo issue, it's just where we are in the measure and when to come in. He doesn't have any formal training. But neither do I, and I don't have to think about it at all, so I really struggled to explain to him how I (or any of our other band members) do it. I mean, I can try and explain that you start singing on the "a" of the 5th bar but that's not how I perceive a song, so it's a lot of work for me to reverse-engineer my instinct and lay it out for him for every single verse of every single song. FYI we're not doing any crazy prog time signatures, it's mostly 4/4 stuff.

He ended up doing a ton of work memorizing specific hooks in some instrument melody or a drum accent that he would use as a cue. That worked pretty decently at our final rehearsals leading up to the show. On stage, it all went back to poopie and the rest of us were left covering for his mistakes.

It's sad because he has a good voice and is an excellent frontman. He's also an awesome fellow, always willing to take feedback, and willing to work to improve himself. But I'm not sure what to tell him. Should I encourage him to take voice lessons? Instrument lessons (he plays a little guitar)? Can one learn timing, or is it an innate ability so if you don't have it you're completely screwed? If there's no hope for him I'd rather give him the harsh news instead of false hope.

Do any of you have experience working with someone who had a hard time with timing, but improved over time? FYI we're all in our 40s to there's no more brain cells left to develop, they're all dying slowly.
Click to expand...
I worked with a singer who had a karaoke set-up at home that he rehearsed on. When he came to the gig he was coming in early or late, missing pauses between lines and such.
I figured it out. Even though he knew the words to the tunes he had gotten comfortable with the the Karoake screen queuing him when to come in. Things got a lot better after we figured it out.
 
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#9
I once had a doozy of a wedding gig, where one thing led to another and we ended up playing requests while the guests sang along while reading the lyrics off their phones. We finally realized that the phones were actually showing some kind of karaoke videos, and of course we were playing at our own tempo, so the words and music were completely disjoint. It was a true train wreck, but everybody was having a blast, and they paid us quite generously for not just one but two extra hours. We went home happy too, but tired. It was altogether about 8 hours of playing time and two load-ins since we had also played the wedding service at a different location.

We had been hired as a jazz combo. ;)
 
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#10
Schpeaker said:
I just did a gig with a singer who has a poor sense of time. It's not a tempo issue, it's just where we are in the measure and when to come in. He doesn't have any formal training. But neither do I, and I don't have to think about it at all, so I really struggled to explain to him how I (or any of our other band members) do it. I mean, I can try and explain that you start singing on the "a" of the 5th bar but that's not how I perceive a song, so it's a lot of work for me to reverse-engineer my instinct and lay it out for him for every single verse of every single song. FYI we're not doing any crazy prog time signatures, it's mostly 4/4 stuff.

He ended up doing a ton of work memorizing specific hooks in some instrument melody or a drum accent that he would use as a cue. That worked pretty decently at our final rehearsals leading up to the show. On stage, it all went back to poopie and the rest of us were left covering for his mistakes.

It's sad because he has a good voice and is an excellent frontman. He's also an awesome fellow, always willing to take feedback, and willing to work to improve himself. But I'm not sure what to tell him. Should I encourage him to take voice lessons? Instrument lessons (he plays a little guitar)? Can one learn timing, or is it an innate ability so if you don't have it you're completely screwed? If there's no hope for him I'd rather give him the harsh news instead of false hope.

Do any of you have experience working with someone who had a hard time with timing, but improved over time? FYI we're all in our 40s to there's no more brain cells left to develop, they're all dying slowly.
Click to expand...
I believe that one can improve their sense of meter (the ability to not rush or drag) and their sense of groove (having a great pocket with good feel thatis appropriate for the style of music, but the issue you describe is a bit elusive. I would say for most experienced musicians, this isnt something that people think about. You just do it. Sorry for not having a more useful response, but I think youre stuck.
 
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#13
Maybe taking this course would help him. It's targeted at bass players but suitable for beginners. It is just about rythm and groove and internalizing time, so maybe it would work with him doing the exercises with his guitar:

arisbassblog.com

Ari's Rhythm Matrix

Learn Ari's Rhythm Matrix - 16 shapes to deepen the pocket, create cool bass grooves on the fly, syncopate with ease and make everyone dance!
arisbassblog.com arisbassblog.com

there is a 30 day money back guarantee, so he can always try it to see if it suits him.
 
#14
Pings Bass said:
How do you know when a singer is at the door?
he doesn't know when to come in
How can you be sure it's the singer?
he can't find the key

BUT SERIOUSLY your guy needs to chart the songs out and learn to COUNT. It's not hard.
Click to expand...
This is a great point. Following a chart forces you to interact with the music, even if you don't play an instrument. Also, it can't be a karaoke video, because as I learned, those things take care of the time for you.
 
#15
Some people just don’t have any ‘song sense’.

I used to play behind a guy who simply could not consistently count music in groupings of four. We’d coach him, and he’d make some progress, and then all of our work would disintegrate in one show. This happened many times.

The thing is crowds loved him, and non-musicians could not tell the difference, even when we were tip-toeing through the train wrecks he often precipitated. It definitely made you good at thinking on your feet.

Another complicating factor was that he was blind, which completely ruled out any visual cues.

But he was an earnest, affable fellow, with an amazing life story, who was pretty good at getting well-paying gigs and attracting nice players to support him. He drove a few people utterly crazy, though. They just couldn’t take it.

Those of us who hung around, accepted the gigs, and became friends just learned to take the bad with the good. There were some songs he delivered well. But goodness, could it be frustrating.

Some people, though they be ‘musicians’, just don’t think in musical terms. They’re out there.
 
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#16
This thread reminds me of the Yuletide standard joke about the bands’ holiday party where someone checks the door every so often to let the singer in…..

I think it can be learned with serious effort. In my early days I would take most anything including gigs where the singer(s) were temporally challenged. I would prompt them with eye contact and nod at the moment just before their entry turning to a mic stand. Cues?
 
#17
Most people can learn, but each of us is different. How quickly someone improves and how good they ultimately get is somewhat dependent on the level of natural ability they posses. It's easy for some and virtually impossible for others. Some people lack sufficient natural ability to function in a musical capacity.
 
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#20
darwin-bass said:
No, I don't think timing can be learned

It can be improved or refined but that is about it.
Click to expand...
This.

I he works really hard he might one day reach average.

A vocal teacher/ coach with lots of live gig experience with bands is the best person to teach them. If the coach can come to an occasional rehearsal or gig that would be even better and knowing/ diagnosing where they need the most help.

Second - he needs to learn an instrument. Guitar would prob be best as they can practice on their own a lot to get better (ie not singing along to recorded music). They can iron out their mistakes on their own time and be better prepared when the full band plays together again.

Thirdly - pick only one member of the band to take ownership of this issue - teaching them to count, giving them cues on stage, etc. There’s nothing worse than 4 different people giving you different instructions and getting frustrated with you to totally ruin your confidence and the show.
 
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