• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Can a sense of time be learned?

#21
Schpeaker said:
We would all yell things like 1 2 3 4, 1 NOW!!
Click to expand...
I think this is the way.

Based on what you describe, his problem isn't timing but orientation. It appears as if he really does not know how to count a 4/4. You'll have to go primary school on him, explaining rhythm from the ground up - you can count the rhythm, it goes to four and then repeat, that kind of stuff. Show him examples: Play an easy riff of a song and let the drums just count the quarter notes, mark just the one with a kick...

I'd take that time and be respectful about it, because if he is a good singer otherwise, he'll have a good ear and there is a lot of potential to unlock.
 
#22
A natural sense of timing is something not everyone is born with. I believe that if one works at it that improvement is possible. But if this singer is already trying to be in a working band it seems to me he's skipped one of the basics. I've always been fortunate to play with naturally musical people where being in sync is rarely a problem. Anything less in just frustrating to me and I've fired drummers over it. I need to have utmost confidence in my bandmates.

I think you and the band need to ask yourselves. Do you want to put in the effort to help this person improve and if so then what is their potential? I personally wouldn't last more than one day with a singer such as you described.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JazznFunk and Schpeaker
#23
Coming in not on one isn't that obvious. Coming in one and a half beats before one, that sort of thing, that's not easy for everyone to just "feel" though I've gotten to the point where I can pretty consistently come in on "not one" without counting... it's kind of a weird feeling of tension like "oh no I'm gonna have to come in and if I don't I'm gonna be too late". Or you could count like a normal person, haha. A sense of time can certainly be improved with the usual metronome exercises (start with metronome on every beat, gradually drop some until you just have the metronome on four and have to "internalize" the other beats). The singer might also need to start counting internally a couple of bars before the vocal starts. And as silly as it seems, waving your arms around like a 90s rapper or bobbing your head helps, too. The bass version of that is plucking 8th notes in the air above the strings when you have rests to count.

Songs can also be just tougher for singers than for bass, too, when bass is playing throughout but the vocal comes in in totally different places. One song a band of mine worked on but abandoned is Cranes' "September". Easy, same chords repeat throughout, but each verse not only has a different vocal melody, the vocal comes in in a different place rhythmically. That sort of thing is just harder and takes more concentration than "regular" songs, and not that we couldn't do it, but we could do two other songs with the same amount of work and a lot less stress for the singer.

Edit: the Gun Club's "Mother Of Earth" is a better-known song that's also very simple to play but when the vocals come in and when to go to the A major for the solo... that can drive even good musicians crazy.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Schpeaker
#24
You're got to be able to count, just like playing an instrument, as not all tunes are that obvious, although a lot are.

I have good example, Pretty Woman, I'll be darned the guitarist and vocalist couldn't get the intro down. And there's a floaty break, before the return to "the lick" and end , that was a forget about it.

You can feel it to some point, I
don't "actually" count 4 bars for example, but I no when they've passed by. Play with some beginners and you see it right away that they haven't developed that sense of larger blocks 2, 4, or 8 bars, or even 1 bar.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Groove Doctor and Schpeaker
#25
This is a basic fail. If they cant hear what virtually everyone picks up on naturally this will be a world of pain.
They obviously need to work out a way to get it. I'm not sure learning to count will do it..because people do that before they even know it is actually counting or rather calculating sub measures.

I'm not sure why you'd want to continue with this situation
 
  • Like
Reactions: Groove Doctor, sean_on_bass and Schpeaker
#26
Schpeaker said:
I just did a gig with a singer who has a poor sense of time. It's not a tempo issue, it's just where we are in the measure and when to come in. He doesn't have any formal training. But neither do I, and I don't have to think about it at all, so I really struggled to explain to him how I (or any of our other band members) do it. I mean, I can try and explain that you start singing on the "a" of the 5th bar but that's not how I perceive a song, so it's a lot of work for me to reverse-engineer my instinct and lay it out for him for every single verse of every single song. FYI we're not doing any crazy prog time signatures, it's mostly 4/4 stuff.

He ended up doing a ton of work memorizing specific hooks in some instrument melody or a drum accent that he would use as a cue. That worked pretty decently at our final rehearsals leading up to the show. On stage, it all went back to poopie and the rest of us were left covering for his mistakes.

It's sad because he has a good voice and is an excellent frontman. He's also an awesome fellow, always willing to take feedback, and willing to work to improve himself. But I'm not sure what to tell him. Should I encourage him to take voice lessons? Instrument lessons (he plays a little guitar)? Can one learn timing, or is it an innate ability so if you don't have it you're completely screwed? If there's no hope for him I'd rather give him the harsh news instead of false hope.

Do any of you have experience working with someone who had a hard time with timing, but improved over time? FYI we're all in our 40s to there's no more brain cells left to develop, they're all dying slowly.
Click to expand...
Why was the singer standing outside his house in the pouring rain?

He couldn’t find the key and didn’t know when to come in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Garret Graves
#28
Like a lot of things, timing is part innate talent and part earned ability. I played with a drummer once who had timing issues - if he wasn’t working at it. Went OK for a while, but when he got s girlfriend, attention got diverted, and he lost his timing chops pretty quickly.

Like a lot of things, when there’s pressure, you revert to less than your best. Sounds like you’re in a really tough situation - there may or may not be a resl fix here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Schpeaker
#29
Schpeaker said:
But he has no internal sense of 4, 8 and 16 beats going on in his head, I think.
Click to expand...
Sounds like he just needs to start counting. It's really not much more complicated than that.

And if he doesn't do that, no "sense" of time will develop or improve because he's not actively keeping track of time. He doesn't need to develop a sense of time. He needs to keep track of time.

And if he doesn't understand how to count musically and what the measure divisions and subdivisions are, instead of learning new songs, he should learn how to count & subdivide, and why it matters in music.

And if he doesn't bother to learn to count (or refuses to), he'll never get better and you'll be perpetually annoyed at the singer singing everything incorrectly.

After he learns to count, he can worry about developing a "sense" for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Garret Graves, pklima and Schpeaker
#30
If anyone should have a sense of time, you'd think it would be drummers, but I've played with a few who constantly sped up or slowed down, apparently no internal "clock" that keeps them on time. Not bragging, but I usually had the best sense of time in the bands I played in, and it was usually me counting off to start a tune, particularly covers. I'm sure most people can improve by using a metronome or click track, but some people are just rythm deaf.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Groove Doctor
#34
As a gigging musician I generally don't see this as I tend to not work with people who are like that. But my day job is recording and producing records, and as such I have come across several order of magnitude of singers and musicians than I would ever as a gigging musician. I can tell you, without the slightest hesitation, that there are people, that simply do not have a sense of time, and no amount of study or coaching is going to fix that in any sort of reliable way. They are related to singers who, during a pause in studio playback, will start singing in a completely different key than what they were just listening to a mere ten seconds earlier. Or the drummer who can only play in three tempos, and by the end of the song, you will be in one of those three. This basically comes down to musical talent, as in, they ain't got it.

That's not to say that most of us can't get better at timing and such, as most of us can. But there are those who simply don't get it, for the simple reason that they can't. How do you recognize these people? Easy. They get it wrong almost every time, despite repeated efforts to fix it. They are consistent in their inconsistency.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: BassGuyFL, Garret Graves and Schpeaker
#38
No. Probably not.

I think you just have to adapt to the singer. Look at it as a good learning opportunity. I think Bob Dylan has always played fast and loose with his arrangements, tempos, key signatures, feels, entrance points, etc. as a way to keep his band from ever sounding too tight and rehearsed...which is sort of cool if you want to watch a genuine one of a kind musical experience.

Trying to coach or teach them if they don't want to be taught or coached will not go over well.
 
#39
Schpeaker said:
Do any of you have experience working with someone who had a hard time with timing, but improved over time?
Click to expand...

There was this guy, lets call him ME
who used to have issues with timing, then he improved over time

I disagree with the belief that "you got it or don't."
I believe "you put in the work, or you don't "
the trick is the musician has to care enough to do the work
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stylee Mousse, Garret Graves, LowWay and 1 other person
#40
I'm sure the guy could learn, but I don't know enough to make a real suggestion.

It can be a problem: I once worked with a 'featured female vocalist' in a one-night sub. Drop-dead gorgeous and had great pipes but . . . . she was permanently hardwired to come in EXACTLY one bar late on every verse or bridge. We played three of four songs of the first set and my head is just swimming. Of course they never told me beforehand. The guitar player finally cued me in to play an extra bar before she'd come in, and that was that.

Never seen anything like that before or since.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: klyph and Garret Graves

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back