• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Can some explain the theory behind this?

#21
Here is something Inpulled from Carol Kaye's website:

"Here's a little history regarding modes. The whole "modes" business came about in Western music because of limitations in the instruments and limitations of music notation. The need to describe music in terms of "modes" went away with the advent of "standard notation." The composers could now describe ALL of the modes by using a single "key signature." In fact, they could also go beyond modal music by including "accidentals", that is, notes outside of the key or mode. Modes didn't disappear, they just became unneccessary. When you construct a bass line, you are walking through a *chord progression*. Just because you happen to be staying within a mode doesn't mean that you are creating the line using modal techniques.

Ed Meinel Reston, VA US"

Makes sense to me.
 
#22
God this is why I hate hanging out in General Instruction these days, there's just a ridiculous amount of misinformation and pseudo theory used to describe simple concepts.

The song is in F# minor. The notes E, A and (G#) are in the key of F# minor, as well as the D chord. Because the notes are in the key, they have the tendency to sound good with chords in the key.

There is absolutely no need to go into notions of temporary lydian modality, or "avoid notes" or intervallic stuff, or anything like that. Key, key, key.
 
#23
u84six said:
Here is something Inpulled from Carol Kaye's website:

"Here's a little history regarding modes. The whole "modes" business came about in Western music because of limitations in the instruments and limitations of music notation. The need to describe music in terms of "modes" went away with the advent of "standard notation." The composers could now describe ALL of the modes by using a single "key signature." In fact, they could also go beyond modal music by including "accidentals", that is, notes outside of the key or mode. Modes didn't disappear, they just became unneccessary. When you construct a bass line, you are walking through a *chord progression*. Just because you happen to be staying within a mode doesn't mean that you are creating the line using modal techniques.

Ed Meinel Reston, VA US"

Makes sense to me.
Click to expand...

Thats a hilariously wrong understanding of music history. Modal music existed for a good 1200 years in Western music (500 AD - 1700 AD) before the concept of harmony and chords came about with the development of functional harmony in 1720 with Rameau, and key signatures/accidentals (musica ficta) have been around since at the very least 1000. I know it was to prove a valid musical point concerning our current musical language and the pedagogy behind it, but man. That guy needs a Music History 101 textbook.
 
#24
Stick_Player said:
Such misguidance on modes here.

Are we sure the chords are truly: | F#m | B | D | F#m|

???

Sure that B chord isn't B Minor?

There are no D Lydians. No one writes in modes anymore, unless you are doing a soundtrack for a pirate movie, use Phrygian or a jazz hipster. And modes do not occur every chord change.

The key, based on the information (sort of) supplied, is simply F# Minor (three sharps) - changing that B to B minor. Most likely the G# is labeled a passing non-chord tone and the E the same or perhaps an 'added' chord tone (i.e., Dadd2).

In the key of F# Minor, a D Major chord with a G# in it (for the full length of said chord) at best would be labeled an Augmented 11th (+11). This is NOT a D Lydian Chord. :rollno:

Nothing more than Diatonic Chords (i, iv, VI, i)
Click to expand...

It's not a Bm. It's just what I said. F#m, B (major), D (major), F#m. That's pretty much the whole song, other than some sections played without the D. It's actually a very nice chord progression and I don't want change it too much, but I really like the drop from A to G# to E while the guitars are playing D (major) and leading back to F#m. The song is slow jazz/blues style.

I was just curious why non chord tones seem to work over the D major. I've been playing for a long time, but it's things like this that have always baffled me.
 
#26
HaVIC5 said:
God this is why I hate hanging out in General Instruction these days, there's just a ridiculous amount of misinformation and pseudo theory used to describe simple concepts.

The song is in F# minor. The notes E, A and (G#) are in the key of F# minor, as well as the D chord. Because the notes are in the key, they have the tendency to sound good with chords in the key.

There is absolutely no need to go into notions of temporary lydian modality, or "avoid notes" or intervallic stuff, or anything like that. Key, key, key.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I thought. Thanks for the clear and concise reinforcement.
 
#27
Muzoid said:
This thread is now hilarious....wow ...talk about a left turn

So much correct info, mixed with a ton of wrong info....I love it, let's call it Jazz
Click to expand...

LOL

I thought my question was quite clear. I'm suprised at all the strange and misleading theories that some people posted. Funny as hell!

Anyhow, I think a couple people got it right.
 
#32
u84six said:
Here is something Inpulled from Carol Kaye's website:

"Here's a little history regarding modes. The whole "modes" business came about in Western music because of limitations in the instruments and limitations of music notation. The need to describe music in terms of "modes" went away with the advent of "standard notation." The composers could now describe ALL of the modes by using a single "key signature." In fact, they could also go beyond modal music by including "accidentals", that is, notes outside of the key or mode. Modes didn't disappear, they just became unneccessary. When you construct a bass line, you are walking through a *chord progression*. Just because you happen to be staying within a mode doesn't mean that you are creating the line using modal techniques.

Ed Meinel Reston, VA US"

Makes sense to me.
Click to expand...

wow. That's not even wrong. That's not even on the map, not of this planet anyway. That's complete crap.

well, if that's on Carol Kaye's site, and people who don't know any better are accepting that idiocy as authoritative, that would explain a lot about what gets posted here as "theory".
 
#33
it's a nice sounding little run because the A is the fifth of the D chord; when you go to the G# it sounds for a second like a flat 5 (Ab) until you hit the E, then it sounds like the major 3rd of E which sounds like a nice resolution in itself = almost like E Maj is the new key center. But then you immediately take it bake to the true key center; F#min -- a very popular chord progression for songs in minor keys = bVII > i.

This is really a nice little turnaround! Well done!

"Theory is for explaining stuff after you've already played it!" -- Dunno
 
#35
late_boomer said:
wow. That's not even wrong. That's not even on the map, not of this planet anyway. That's complete crap.

well, if that's on Carol Kaye's site, and people who don't know any better are accepting that idiocy as authoritative, that would explain a lot about what gets posted here as "theory".
Click to expand...

I didn't say it was correct. I just thought it was an interesting perspective. Here's the wiki for modes (again, wiki isn't always right, but at least you can file a complaint about the info):

Musical mode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#36
ryco said:
it's a nice sounding little run because the A is the fifth of the D chord; when you go to the G# it sounds for a second like a flat 5 (Ab) until you hit the E, then it sounds like the major 3rd of E which sounds like a nice resolution in itself = almost like E Maj is the new key center. But then you immediately take it bake to the true key center; F#min -- a very popular chord progression for songs in minor keys = bVII > i.

This is really a nice little turnaround! Well done!

"Theory is for explaining stuff after you've already played it!" -- Dunno
Click to expand...

Thank you. I only use it once in the song, and it's after the instrumental going back into a verse. I slide my finger up the A string from the B note, and then I do the drop riff from the 14th fret and then do it again at the 7th fret before going into the low F#. So I actually do it twice for the return. I love the sound and it also cues the rest of the band that the instrumental is over and that the verse is going to start again.
 
#37
251 said:
To the OP - It sounds like you know the composer. How did He/She answer your question? Something more substantial, I hope, than saying it sounds good. 8-)
Click to expand...

Well we haven't recorded it yet, so I think the other band members are just taking it for now while they concentrate on their parts. It's a new song and we played it at a gig on Friday night and people who know our other stuff were praising the song after we finished. So I'm pretty confident with my parts so far.
 
#38
u84six said:
Nope! :)
Click to expand...
I obviously need to explain the sequence I posted.

To some extent and in some situations, the notes that musicians play define what the chord sequence is, rather than the other way around. This seems like a cool example.

The extended chord in the sequence defined by the notes you are playing is just built up diatonically in thirds from the D major, and it fits rather nicely. It's definitely not the case that every note in every bass line becomes a chord tone, but with this one it works well, I think.

Here's your sequence played very simply on piano and bass, four times, with the notes you specify for the bassline in the third bar each time round. The first and third time through the sequence, the piano just plays D major over this bar. The second and fourth time, the piano plays the extended chord, DM9#11. Listen carefully and you should see how that fits. After all, that's why you chose the notes. :)
 

Attachments

#39
bassybill said:
I obviously need to explain the sequence I posted.

To some extent and in some situations, the notes that musicians play define what the chord sequence is, rather than the other way around. This seems like a cool example.

The extended chord in the sequence defined by the notes you are playing is just built up diatonically in thirds from the D major, and it fits rather nicely. It's definitely not the case that every note in every bass line becomes a chord tone, but with this one it works well, I think.

Here's your sequence played very simply on piano and bass, four times, with the notes you specify for the bassline in the third bar each time round. The first and third time through the sequence, the piano just plays D major over this bar. The second and fourth time, the piano plays the extended chord, DM9#11. Listen carefully and you should see how that fits. After all, that's why you chose the notes. :)
Click to expand...
:eek:

My hat's off to people that understand it on this level. I'm just a normal hack performer. :(
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back