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Can some explain the theory behind this?

#41
bassybill said:
I obviously need to explain the sequence I posted.

To some extent and in some situations, the notes that musicians play define what the chord sequence is, rather than the other way around. This seems like a cool example.

The extended chord in the sequence defined by the notes you are playing is just built up diatonically in thirds from the D major, and it fits rather nicely. It's definitely not the case that every note in every bass line becomes a chord tone, but with this one it works well, I think.

Here's your sequence played very simply on piano and bass, four times, with the notes you specify for the bassline in the third bar each time round. The first and third time through the sequence, the piano just plays D major over this bar. The second and fourth time, the piano plays the extended chord, DM9#11. Listen carefully and you should see how that fits. After all, that's why you chose the notes. :)
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Awesome! Thanks for putting in the time to create a sample and explain the theory. Very helpful! And it seems you've got it right, only I question the minor in the D given that there are two guitars playing D Major chord while I'm doing the riff (unless I didn't understand you, which is my bad). But anyhow, when I listen to a recording of it, I have a better understanding why it sounds good to me. Because it just sounds good! :)

Edit: never mind, I see the notes for this now. Thanks!
 
#42
u84six said:
Awesome! Thanks for putting in the time to create a sample and explain the theory. Very helpful! And it seems you've got it right, only I question the minor in the D given that there are two guitars playing D Major chord while I'm doing the riff (unless I didn't understand you, which is my bad). But anyhow, when I listen to a recording of it, I have a better understanding why it sounds good to me. Because it just sounds good! :)
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Ah! I see where the confusion is now. DM9#11 = Dmaj9#11. Capital M = major and lowercase m = minor. But it's still basically a D major chord, built up from D major by adding extra thirds stacked up on top in the key in which you're playing (and these notes happen to be the ones in your bass line, as has been noted).

Stacking these notes in thirds gives D F# A C# (the maj 7, which isn't in your line) E (the ninth, which is) and G# (the sharp 11, which also is). If I wanted to get really jazzy, I'd have added the 13th (B) in as well. At that point, stacking thirds would have included every diatonic note in the key.

Extending chords by stacking thirds like this can be fun, and it just happened that the notes in your line matched quite well.
 
#43
Ab does not exist in the key of F#m. Let's call it G#. :)

As others have said, the notes A-G#-E (I assume you go back to F# after that) are diatonic to the key, and lead the listener's ear back to the root of i (F#). If it sounds good, do it!
 
#44
u84six said:
I didn't say it was correct. I just thought it was an interesting perspective. Here's the wiki for modes (again, wiki isn't always right, but at least you can file a complaint about the info):

Musical mode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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ok, you thought I was insulting you, nope :) I was just giving you a quick heads up about that, umm, perspective. It's hilarious. It's crap. This isn't my "opinion", it's just ordinary fact that everyone knows who's actually studied music history, early music, modal counterpoint.

thanks for the wiki link, lol. I do know modes (he typed, mildly), both in the pre-tonal system sense and the modern sense. I didn't learn these things from wiki articles or web forums, though. No one ever does.

The cruel fact is, to get even a cursory understanding of these things is a lot of study, over years. There isn't an alternative.

so, sorry if it looked like I was ragging on you. I wasn't.
 
#45
bassybill said:
Ah! I see where the confusion is now. DM9#11 = Dmaj9#11. Capital M = major and lowercase m = minor. But it's still basically a D major chord, built up from D major by adding extra thirds stacked up on top in the key in which you're playing (and these notes happen to be the ones in your bass line, as has been noted).

Stacking these notes in thirds gives D F# A C# (the maj 7, which isn't in your line) E (the ninth, which is) and G# (the sharp 11, which also is). If I wanted to get really jazzy, I'd have added the 13th (B) in as well. At that point, stacking thirds would have included every diatonic note in the key.

Extending chords by stacking thirds like this can be fun, and it just happened that the notes in your line matched quite well.
Click to expand...

Yes, that was it. I've seen it two ways. I usually see the chord names without the 'M' when it's major. Anyhow, thanks for the discussion. Much better than all the people telling me to call it G# and not Ab. DOH!! :D
 
#46
u84six said:
Yes, that was it. I've seen it two ways. I usually see the chord names without the 'M' when it's major. Anyhow, thanks for the discussion. Much better than all the people telling me to call it G# and not Ab. DOH!! :D
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The M applies to the 7th and is necessary for chords like DM7 (D major + major 7, C#) and DM9 (D major plus major 7 C# plus 9 E). D7 and D9 would include C (the minor 7) instead of C#.

A 3rd is always major unless specified minor, but for a 7th it's minor unless specified as major. Hence the need for the capital M in the chord symbol I wrote in your sequence.

Glad you're finding this helpful, or at least interesting. And don't be hard on the folks telling you it's G# and not Ab, I'm sure they're just trying to be helpful as well (and they're correct, of course). :D
 
#47
bassybill said:
The M applies to the 7th and is necessary for chords like DM7 (D major + major 7, C#) and DM9 (D major plus major 7 C# plus 9 E). D7 and D9 would include C (the minor 7) instead of C#.

A 3rd is always major unless specified minor, but for a 7 it's minor unless specified as major. Hence the need for the capital M in the chord symbol I wrote in your sequence.
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Got it. Thank you.
 
#48
bassybill said:
The M applies to the 7th and is necessary for chords like DM7 (D major + major 7, C#) and DM9 (D major plus major 7 C# plus 9 E). D7 and D9 would include C (the minor 7) instead of C#.

A 3rd is always major unless specified minor, but for a 7th it's minor unless specified as major. Hence the need for the capital M in the chord symbol I wrote in your sequence.

Glad you're finding this helpful, or at least interesting. :)
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Why do I have this feeling that if the guitarists played that actual chord, it wouldn't sound very good? ;)
 
#49
u84six said:
Why do I have this feeling that if the guitarists played that actual chord, it wouldn't sound very good? ;)
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Guitarists/keyboardists/brass section et cetera often don't have to play all the notes in a chord. The extended version of the chord is sort of IMPLIED by the notes they do play and what everybody else - including you, of course - is doing. I think of some great examples of this, but they might be a bit too jazzy for this thread. Listen to the changes in this, though, if you're interested.

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Besides, if you asked most guitarists to play a major 9th chord with a sharp 11, they'd crap themselves. :D
 
#51
bassybill said:
Guitarists/keyboardists/brass section et cetera often don't have to play all the notes in a chord. The extended version of the chord is sort of IMPLIED by the notes they do play and what everybody else - including you, of course - is doing. I think of some great examples of this, but they might be a bit too jazzy for this thread. Listen to the changes in this, though, if you're interested.

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Besides, if you asked most guitarists to play a major 9th chord with a sharp 11, they'd crap themselves. :D
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Yeah, that stuff always amazes me. It's like you can hear standard 4 bar blues in the background while everyone is playing all sorts of different notes over it. Very nice!
 
#52
u84six said:
Yeah, that stuff always amazes me. It's like you can hear standard 4 bar blues in the background while everyone is playing all sorts of different notes over it. Very nice!
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That's right. The basic changes are very straightforward, but the passing notes and extensions to them are all over the place. Here's the guitar chart.
 

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#53
Wow, been going through my old posts and came across this one. I read through it all again and so many theories, a little misinformation, but a lot of interesting responses. Then I remembered that I actually have access to a live recording of the song that we made at one of the clubs we played at.

I'm not sure if any of you who commented in this thread are still around, but you can hear the song at the following link. If you read my op, I was contemplating a riff that sounded good to my ears (A, Ab, E) but didn't know if it would work (theory wise). Well, I ended up going with it, and you can hear me play that little riff during the instrumental part at the very end where I slide up to the higher notes. Keep in mind that this was the first time we played the song and it was recorded live through the house mixer. Go to the link and select the song in the song list on the left. It's called "Dream of a Girl (live)".

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