Double Bass Can Someone Explain Flame / Tiger Stripe Finish?

[MT Spaces]

I guess I read it as he was asking if there were examples of fake flame in classical period instruments. Regardless, it's always fun to look at your photos.

Yes Bob .... what I am most interested in are the actual finishing techniques for achieving the fakey flaming / tiger striping. But I agree ... it is wonderful to see real wood flameyness ... some ideas for the fakers to emulate .

As I thought more about the fakey stuff last nite, I realized (Duh ) that a finisher / bass owner is at a major crossroad when deciding how to do it. If one lays down some patterns with spray or brush strokes over a "ground coat" on the body of a bass .... then the process can be reversed in the future by taking the bass back to white wood and refinishing it with a different look.

On the other hand .... if one takes the acid etching approach (or maybe even wood burning ... I was pretty handy with a wood burner when I was a young Cub Sprout ) then those marks become integral to the bare wood .... making a reversal very difficult ... especially on thin veneer ply basses.

Assuming the effects are sprayed / brushed ..... I am wondering at which stage the tiger stripes (and/or sunburst / shadow effects) are applied .... right after "ground coat" or towards the end after the color coats are laid down? I haven't read the links provided yet .... maybe there's some info there. Thanks Everyone.

 

[dennis duvall]

hey guys, I said original meaning untouched or otherwise not messed with. that neck is a perfect example of what fakers would strive to try to acomplish. I in NO way was trying to infer that that neck had any type of artifical treatment done to it. I appologize for leading to any mis interpretations of the example I used to discuss the issue of figuring in wood. Dennis

 

[bassist14]

Thanks Bassist .... I will check it out. By the way, I see you sold a '39 Kay M-1 recently. Did it by any chance have the tiger back? It would have been made in the right time-frame for that kind of finish.

sorry bob, no tiger back.
i have another 39er where the back is a little flamed, but not like yours.

 

[MT Spaces]

Here's a '39er Kay Orchestra from Fretwell Bass "Sold Basses Gallery" .... Tiger back but not the sides ....

Anybody else have any pictures to share ?

 

[farmerdude]

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Whos face is that...???

 

[MT Spaces]

... Whos face is that...???

Aw Shucks ..... That's easy once you crop the left and right thirds of the photo .... It's Dumbo's mother helping the roustabouts to lift some rigging for the trapeze show under the Big Top .

Here's another .... a '39er Gretsch Tone King (made by Kay) from Fretwell Bass "Sold Basses Gallery" .... Tiger back but not the sides ....

 

[farmerdude]

haha...I was talkin' about the cave man looking dude on the left...

 

[robobass]

I haven't heard this topic discussed before. Thanks to the OP.
A lot of new (and lower end) instruments have very prominent flames and stripes. Here are some examples from China:

Are these real? I know a guy with a modern italian bass whose tiger stripes were created in the varnish itself. It's a nice instrument, but the stripes are gradually wearing off with playing. It makes the bass look very cheap.
Robobass

 

[Eli_Upright12]

I know (or at least have heard) that the Roth basses have etched flames, I'm not sure whether that means they engraved flames in or if they did the aforementioned dying scheme, but the flames do wear off.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

That is real flame. As has been mentioned before, real flame "moves" when you tilt it under the light.

The irregularity of the figure is another point in its favour. That's pretty wood!

 

[Bob Branstetter]

I know (or at least have heard) that the Roth basses have etched flames, I'm not sure whether that means they engraved flames in or if they did the aforementioned dying scheme, but the flames do wear off.

I have not observed fake flame in any of the many Scherl & Roth basses I've worked on over the years. Keep in mind that the varnish seems to magnify natural flame and may lose this effect if the varnish is very worn or gone

However, I suspect that some of the basses sold by non-music catalog retailers such as Sears (see reprinted 1902 Sears catalog) in the 1900-1920 era may have been faked. All of the (German) basses that I suspect of having fake flame have had this linage. I may not have the eyes of those who claim it is easy to determine fake flame by observing at an angle, but the aged, worn, dark varnish was certainly good enough to fool me initially.

Sent from my iPod Touchl

 

[dennis duvall]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread,I was refinishing my backup romanian bass and ran across this thread. Do to all the hoopla about this I decided to acid fake the neck to show one way that figuring can be faked. Dennis

 

[Eli_Upright12]

I have not observed fake flame in any of the many Scherl & Roth basses I've worked on over the years. Keep in mind that the varnish seems to magnify natural flame and may lose this effect if the varnish is very worn or gone

However, I suspect that some of the basses sold by non-music catalog retailers such as Sears (see reprinted 1902 Sears catalog) in the 1900-1920 era may have been faked. All of the (German) basses that I suspect of having fake flame have had this linage. I may not have the eyes of those who claim it is easy to determine fake flame by observing at an angle, but the aged, worn, dark varnish was certainly good enough to fool me initially.

Sent from my iPod Touchl

as far as I know the bass I play at school is a E H Roth III c 1975, but I'm not positive, I'll check tomorrow, but it definitely has a "flamed" neck that is fading away. Its one of those big red hybrids with an arched back, but the distinguishing feature is that though it has an arch it also sort of has a break like a flat back.

 

[P_bass]

Some Flamed Necks and stuff.. (no names, you figure it out..lol);

Thanks Ken, that is some beautiful figuring!

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Hey Dennis, that's pretty good! Much better than the painted-on stuff.

You said that was wool and some kind of acid, right? Oxalic or ?

 

[dennis duvall]

Hey Jake, this is a process that i gleaned from my mentor at the gun museum. i used to use it when conserving and repairing 200 yr old gun stocks. i'll pm ya the formula. Dennis

 

[ctregan]

I decided to acid fake the neck to show one way that figuring can be faked. Dennis

Thats really cool, good job Denis

 

[ctregan]

Does the "acid burn" make the lighter stripes?
pm me with the formula too!

 

[dennis duvall]

ctregan; pmed

 

[Bob Branstetter]

At one time, many amateur violin makers used diluted acid and ozone cabinets (which actually produced nitric acid) to darken the the wood and bring out the natural flame of the wood. Many found out the hard way that if the acid is not 100% neutralized, the acid continues to slowly work on the wood for years afterward as humidity reactivates the acid. I was shown one acid treated violin by my late mentor that looked wonderful to the naked eye, but the wood under the varnish had actually been weakened by acid (done 10+ years earlier) to the point that the plates could be crushed with your fingers. That demonstration was enough to keep me from ever using acid on tone wood. Apparently, complete 100% neutralization of the acid on and in the wood is not as easy as one might think.