Can't deal with IEM's

[Barisaxman]

We;ve talked about a butt kicker for the drummer. Does the entire stage feel this or only the person standing on it?

Only the person standing on it. Our church build a platform for both the bass players and drummers with butt-kickers installed. I'm not going to lie, I had always been skeptical, but I REALLY enjoy the solution as the tactile feedback (as long as you don't have too much...FOOT MASSAGE!) between bass and some kick drum is really nice and allows you to "feel" the mix if that's important to you. I've been using in-ears for the better part of 10 years and I'm comfortable either way, but it can be a really nice solution to a silent stage.

Just to add some commentary on in-ear buds solution. Generally I'm in the camp of "get the best you can afford". I used Shure E2's (single driver) for nearly 7 years before they started falling apart, now using Westone Pro20's, dual driver. Dual sounds better, I'm sure triples sound fantastic. Main thing though is understanding what you're listening to. If you can't EQ your mix, the best earbud in the world won't really help...there's a point of diminishing returns. My lead singer swears by his 1964 Ears V6 Stages. I'm sure they are great. Custom molds will probably make you happiest. I've never been left wanting with my off-the shelf solutions. I can get a good seal and can dial in exactly what I want to hear. You get what you put into the experience...really.

 

[micahwc]

For me the key to using IEMs is to make sure that you get the mix you want in your ears from all the other people. For me personally it is really disorienting when a high pitched sound suddenly enters with high volume (female vocalist, lead guitar, etc), so I have to turn them down a bit. I also like to turn the bass up a lot, otherwise I play too hard with my fingers and get really bad blisters. Getting the mix of everything just right for you in your IEMs is well worth the time it takes. We use Avioms, so I can adjust the mix on the fly; I really like this set up.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the mix you hear in your ears may be nothing like what the audience hears. You have to trust your sound people to do their job.

The hardest part for IEMs for me is actually wearing them. I don't like the way they feel. I use Shure SE215s. They sound decent. I think they are probably about the minimum you should get for decent IEMs.

 

[AztecViking]

We;ve talked about a butt kicker for the drummer. Does the entire stage feel this or only the person standing on it?

I really wanted to try out TecAmps pleasure boards last year at NAMM but I didn't find any set up at their booth. From all I've read only the player standing on them feels the vibrations. Barisaxman above seems to say the same thing about the Buttkicker rigs.

 

[SteveC]

We usually work with engineers who are only willing to give us a single monitor mix, which has VERY little bass in it.

The most recent gig we played, I asked for a second monitor mix just for me. I asked the engineer for the same mix as everybody else, just with the bass cranked way louder. (The engineer is a bassist, so he understood.). It was great. I heard myself crystal clear, and had a blast.

So to me, the biggest risk and problem with IEMs is the monitor engineers. You're basically at their mercy. If you trust them to give you what they need to hear, you can have a great experience. If not, you may really struggle.

Well, a single mix (probably a FOH mix) for the entire band won't work. Period.
A 2nd mix with you louder is a workable.
It is about the engineer, but I would think with as affordable as mixers are these days that allow people to do their own mix via their iPhone, you shouldn't have to deal with a mix engineer that much.

 

[Dana R Gregory]

My church recently went to IEMs. I don't like the Ears so I use a set of headphones which are more comfortable for me.

 

[chivsjawn]

IME in ears work if you have 2 things in place:
1. Good earbuds.
2. Good sound guy.

I usually work with one sound guy, not a pro, but he's good. He's still figuring out in-ear mixes, I think, and the mix is never satisfying, but it saves my ears from being blown out by my loud band. But this last weekend we did a gig where we brought in a professional sound crew, I did my in ears (same ear buds, same band) and the mix was tons better.
I like the idea of earbuds, and yeah, it can feel like you're separated from the band, but I've heard from many people that it's one of those things that takes practice to get used to, and once you're used to using them it's hard to go back.

 

[MDBass]

Or are we truly dependent on the sound person to make everything right?

Yes, you are.

It doesn't matter if everyone one stage is doing everything right if the FOH engineer is doing everything wrong.

 

[buckangus]

the entry level ceramic armature SHURE's street price about $99 are as good as it gets just to get started -- I have a pair that I use to practice with and on stage I have the 3 driver SHURE $800 IEM's with Sennhieser wireless (both bass and monitor) -- if you are OK with it, try some good OPEN BACK headphones from AKG - musicians friend was running specials on 2 different pair for about $30 and I snagged both types and love em -- open back means you get the outside volume -- same plugs but swear they'll do you better

 

[s0c9]

So to me, the biggest risk and problem with IEMs is the monitor engineers. You're basically at their mercy. If you trust them to give you what they need to hear, you can have a great experience. If not, you may really struggle.

Very true!!
The ONLY real solution to this problem is to control your own IEM mix.. and NOT rely on FOH for it. TO be fair.. if you gig once a month the expense probably isn't worth it.. but if your band (like mine) gigs 6-8+ times a month then the price-point becomes viable.

We are using an X32 Producer with a 16-ch splitter snake + a dual-band router (Archer C7) connected to support wireless IEM mix apps on iOS/Android devices.
We ALWAYS use our own mics/cables (no-one has ever complained yet). All connect to the splitter snake box, with one leg connected to the X32.
Depending on FOH needs, we either:

1. Send the House an L/R feed and we run the FOH mix via iPad out front, or
2. Hook up the other leg of the splitter snake to their stage box and let them run FOH.

When we provide the PA, we do the same as #1 above - sending L/R mains out to our powered PA. In ALL of the above scenarios, our IEM mix is the same from gig to gig...and FOH has ZERO IMPACT on those mixes.

Plus, our G3 IEM wireless xmitters are permanently housed (and hooked up) in the same rack as the X32 and snake. It's small and easily portable.
Everything is mic'ed at every gig.. no matter the size.. so stage volumes are quiet...

Again, this type of config is budget dependent.. We're just a busy local band.. but we have FULL CONTROL over our IEM needs, and don't have to worry about what FOH is doing.

 

[1954bassman]

FOH does come into play if the sound person mixes from the gain knobs. And yes Irene that happens a lot.

 

[+6dB Dan]

Wearing only one earpiece at a time is never a good idea

Yes, please be careful here guys and gals. Wearing only one earpiece can put you at risk for hearing loss. For one, the ear without an earpiece is exposed to the stage volume, which can be loud enough to be damaging (unless you wear an earplug in that ear). And also, research shows (I'll try to post links whenever I find them) that people wearing only one earpiece tend to turn that earpiece up in level to compensate for there being only one, which can result it being loud enough to be damaging.

I've done this too in a pinch (when my monitor mix sucked so much I couldn't hear myself), but you shouldn't rely on it as standard operating procedure.

 

[mrufino1]

Yep, this guy pretty much nailed it. I've had more problems with foh ruining a monitor mix by tweaking gain structure while playing a set. Some sound guys get it, but most don't imo.

Sometimes gain structure needs to be tweaked when the source changes drastically, but I try to do only the most subtle change when absolutely necessary. Remembering as a sound person that you are there to serve the musicians and give them the platform to do what they do best. When I'm the bassist, I appreciate people with that outlook and when I'm the sound person I make sure I do it.

We usually work with engineers who are only willing to give us a single monitor mix, which has VERY little bass in it.

So to me, the biggest risk and problem with IEMs is the monitor engineers. You're basically at their mercy. If you trust them to give you what they need to hear, you can have a great experience. If not, you may really struggle.

What I wrote above DEFINITELY applies here. In this case, if you're hiring them, then you should NOT be at their mercy. And of course, service is the attitude, but it really is a respectful partnership.

.

The hardest part for IEMs for me is actually wearing them. I don't like the way they feel. I use Shure SE215s. They sound decent. I think they are probably about the minimum you should get for decent IEMs.

Wearing the shure 215's is nothing like getting iem's custom fitted. Generic headsets are not iem's, no matter what the marketing. It's worth the money. You can get custom dual driver iem's around $300, if choosing between dual custom or any number of driver generic, it's not even going to be close, the custom will be so much better. The bonus is you get to keep your hearing for many many years.

At the minimum (and with the shures you can do this), at least get the custom sleeves that sensaphonics makes. It's not just blocking the ear canal that's important but getting the tip of the item to where it needs to be in the ear.

My customs are getting ready to be replaced because they are done (I highly do NOT recommend gorilla ears at this point), and I'm going to have to save up a little but it will pay off so much more than any new bass, amp, pedal, etc ever will.

I'm not meaning to pick on you, but the customs are very very worthwhile if you're going to be doing iem's. Otherwise, honestly, spend $150 for custom ear plugs, which I have found let me hear everything much better.

 

[mrufino1]

And one thing for anyone to keep in mind :
The great thing about IEM'S is that you can hear everything clearly.

And the terrible thing about IEM'S is that you can hear everything clearly.

 

[CRich0205]

My church is all IEM and DI. Drums are in an isolation booth and miced up and sent to the behringer system. We have an x32 and the personal monitor stands. Once I started mixing my own ears everything got a lot better and easier to hear. That disconnect feeling is real and can be a challenge to adjust to. My buffets struggle is with dynamics, by that I mean when we go to a soft part of a song how soft is to soft. I push my bass above everything else and sitting just right for FOH can be tough. My secular band we just use stage amps for monitoring and it's much easier in that sense.

 

[walterw]

we've played a number of gigs where all of us are on IEMs.

We usually work with engineers who are only willing to give us a single monitor mix

yeah, no way in hell.

IEMs without your own personal mix would be intolerable, i'm amazed that anybody in your band would put up with that for five seconds. i'd go with no monitors at all before i did that.

one workaround (for you at least) is the previously mentioned rolls PM351. with that little box you can cobble together your own mix out of your vocals, your bass, and whatever they feed you from the board and balance it yourself.

 

[joebar]

I didn't like it in my old church either.
I spent 500 on my custom buds but with so many other factors involved out of your control, it was an exercise in futility.

 

[s0c9]

Sometimes gain structure needs to be tweaked when the source changes drastically, but I try to do only the most subtle change when absolutely necessary. Remembering as a sound person that you are there to serve the musicians and give them the platform to do what they do best. When I'm the bassist, I appreciate people with that outlook and when I'm the sound person I make sure I do it.

While I agree in principle.. that kind of event displays the inexperience of the musicians on stage. But yeah, I know... it DOES happen...
If sound check is done, unless there's some failure.. there's no reason for a guitar player to boost his amp volume, or pedal output.
In other words.. it SHOULD NOT happen! If it does, someone goofed!!
I make sure we run thru pedals, etc when there's time.. . that's also why LIMITERS should always be in an IEM mix..

 

[+6dB Dan]

yeah, no way in hell.

IEMs without your own personal mix would be intolerable, i'm amazed that anybody in your band would put up with that for five seconds. i'd go with no monitors at all before i did that.

one workaround (for you at least) is the previously mentioned rolls PM351. with that little box you can cobble together your own mix out of your vocals, your bass, and whatever they feed you from the board and balance it yourself.

Thanks for the tip! Something like that could definitely help.

Your response makes me wonder how common it is for anentire band to use a single IEM mix. At the kinds of venues we play, the engineer comes with the venue and is typically working with multiple bands a night. They usually
make it seem like asking them to mix for IEMs at all is pushing our luck.

 

[mrufino1]

While I agree in principle.. that kind of event displays the inexperience of the musicians on stage. But yeah, I know... it DOES happen...
If sound check is done, unless there's some failure.. there's no reason for a guitar player to boost his amp volume, or pedal output.
In other words.. it SHOULD NOT happen! If it does, someone goofed!!
I make sure we run thru pedals, etc when there's time.. . that's also why LIMITERS should always be in an IEM mix..

In this case definitely not the experience of the musicians at play, but there are times when something does change. In this particular setting it's not IEM's though, all wedges and it's a jazz group in a very large church space. It's not very often that I have to make those changes, but from time to time it happens. It also is often just 1 or 2 db at the most, definitely not talking about drastic changes. Oh, except one case- when a trumpet player switches from open to harmon mute that can result in a very different level, but I adjust so the the incoming level is the same. I'm most definitely not using the input trims to mix, I think maybe that's where people were running into more issues.

Still, as I said, I'm there to set them up to not think about it and perform their best (which is a very very high level), and I have learned in the 4 years or so that I've been doing it what each player generally likes, such as a player who likes his monitor elevated on a box because he's extremely tall, which side they prefer their monitor, one saxophonist who always needs more of himself for the last song, which is typically louder than others as people are leaving, so there's also talking, etc. And the fun starts then as this giant room goes from being full to being 1/10th of that amount by the end of the song! I gradually hear the low end go from tight and defined to looser and looser...but that's a different story.

One cool thing that happens is that sometimes I'll have to adjust a high pass filter or something on guitar, maybe move it from 100hz to 120 hz and he'll ask me later if I changed the filter at some point. And that's on wedges, I would love to mix IEM's for him someday, great ears!

 

[mrufino1]

Thanks for the tip! Something like that could definitely help.

Your response makes me wonder how common it is for anentire band to use a single IEM mix. At the kinds of venues we play, the engineer comes with the venue and is typically working with multiple bands a night. They usually
make it seem like asking them to mix for IEMs at all is pushing our luck.

On multi-band nights where it is not the grammys, etc, where there are 4 days of sound checks prior to the broadcast (maybe more than that, I don't know!), IEM's are probably out. I can't imagine IEM's with an engineer that I didn't work with regularly, unless I was mixing my own from my iPad, but most likely on a night like that it's not happening. That's when the custom earplugs come out, which is the next best thing to IEMs for me. Although on my iPad (and iPhone where available) I have the app for just about every digital mixer there is so I can do my own if in that type of situation. My band has the QSC mixers, but I'm subbing with a guy this Friday who has the x18 air, came across an x32 in the summer (they were even cool enough to let me record into auria on the iPad through USB- the soundman had never heard of auria and bought it on the spot, and even let me use his Camera connection kit that allows you to charge at the same time- that's what I mean when I say service/ partnership, they were so easy to work with), and the occasional studiolive.

It's good when everyone tries to be easy to work with and works together.