Cant find low end in Theatre, with 18"

[Stag]

Hi guys, i could use some wisdom.

Problem: We play on the stage of a 500 seat theater. My mid range is amazing, couldn't ask for more. But i cannot seem to get the low end to thump, let alone be full.

My rig:
05 american p bass w/ geddy lee neck. (S1 switching)
105-45 GHS bass boomers.
SWR mo bass head, pedalboard, power conditioner
SWR goliath JR 8ohm
SWR big ben (4ohm i think?)

I have fooled with all the settings and inputs, and am frustrated. I run a MoBass direct out, and a mic on the 18. Is the body and neck combo an issue? do i need an active bass? Unfortunately i dont have a picture of my settings, as the amp is at our rehearsal space.

I ask for your grace in advance. Live sound is not my strong suit. Just curious if i can make this rig work, otherwise i'm headed towards a TH500, Berg CN212 and Stock american p bass.

Any suggestions? Advise? Tips to try?

 

[modulusman]

If you are playing a 500 seat theater you should have some PA support. That is where your thump will come from.

 

[Stag]

Forgot to mention that. We defiantly do, should I not be trying to get the thump from my own rig?

 

[RedLeg]

Forgot to mention that. We defiantly do, should I not be trying to get the thump from my own rig?

no. amps are glorified monitors. give your soundman a pre signal, ditch the mic'd cab and if your soundman is worth his salt and has some decent equipment he will do the rest.

honestly, you can run a sansamp or a REDDI to a jbl powered monitor, or an in ear system if you have the dough, and save your back and pocketbook some unnecessary strain!!

 

[mbelue]

If you don't like your on stage sound its not a good idea to mic your cab. DI will help FOH sort it out.
You should have plenty of EQ with that head to make it sound fine, I suspect you do not like your cabinets. Should this be the case lots of folks will suggest their favorite. Mine are fEARfuls. A single15/6 well be much lighter than your two cabs and have plenty of thump with that amp.

 

[jaywa]

+1 to pretty much everything here and I would also add, your bass is definitely NOT the problem. Passive P-Basses have been "thumping" concert halls for years.

 

[Stone Soup]

I've stood in a 'dead zone' on stage, before. You may be experiencing phase cancellation in your low end. Does it happen no matter where you are on stage?

 

[Stag]

no. amps are glorified monitors. give your soundman a pre signal, ditch the mic'd cab and if your soundman is worth his salt and has some decent equipment he will do the rest.

honestly, you can run a sansamp or a REDDI to a jbl powered monitor, or an in ear system if you have the dough, and save your back and pocketbook some unnecessary strain!!

This is good info, thanks, after reading it i think i'm leaning towards not being happy with my tone period, weather in a theater or not. Does that make sense?

If you don't like your on stage sound its not a good idea to mic your cab. DI will help FOH sort it out.
You should have plenty of EQ with that head to make it sound fine, I suspect you do not like your cabinets. Should this be the case lots of folks will suggest their favorite. Mine are fEARfuls. A single15/6 well be much lighter than your two cabs and have plenty of thump with that amp.

On my head i have two balanced outs, direct and Mo'Bass, i'm under the impression adds my EQ to it. Should i be running a -20db out ever? or is that only for active. Any chance the head could have a bad tube causing a lame tone?

+1 to pretty much everything here and I would also add, your bass is definitely NOT the problem. Passive P-Basses have been "thumping" concert halls for years.

Would the Jazz neck work against that p bass?

I've stood in a 'dead zone' on stage, before. You may be experiencing phase cancellation in your low end. Does it happen no matter where you are on stage?

Happens no matter where i stand. Maybe i should change the thread title to Can't find the low end. It happens regardless of location, the theater is just where i am loudest.

Sorry for the confusion. I'm prob more confused then you guys trying to help!

 

[Stone Soup]

Happens no matter where i stand. Maybe i should change the thread title to Can't find the low end. It happens regardless of location, the theater is just where i am loudest.

Are you crossing over the two cabs or are you running both cabs full range?

 

[PhatRon]

If that big ben is an 18" you are most likely too close to it to really hear what it's doing. I'd bet that 30 ft. away its thumpin' a plenty. Also instead of boosting the sub frequencies, try boosting upper bass/low mids. That's where the thump really lies anyhow.

 

[RedLeg]

Stag,

What I can recommend is that you listen to the boards mix, especially how your soundman has you mixed down, and listen to the house mix (someone else will have to play bass). This will give you an idea what your guy thinks bass should sound like and how he has his subs crossed over. It is like NASCAR; you're the driver and he is the mechanic that is supposed to tailor your sound to the masses. If all of that is kosher, you can begin to worry about the stage sound, that is your domain, minus the monitors that is. Some of the simplest "I cant get the right sound coming back to me" fixes has been by having specific monitor mix with more kick drum and less vox and guitars. Personally I like it that way with vox and guitars and horns in the side fills. YMMV! Welcome to the working stiff musician class!

 

[ozzyismetal]

Get a tech/sound guy/guitarist to play through your rig fully PA'd as it would be in performance and walk around the theatre to various seats and then see if it's still lacking that thump.

 

[bongomania]

i think i'm leaning towards not being happy with my tone period, weather in a theater or not. Does that make sense?

Sure, we all spend a lot of time either questing after "our perfect tone" unless we get lucky and happen to love the tone of something that came easy. Sometimes the things we think are "good" for our tone end up being hindrances.

On my head i have two balanced outs, direct and Mo'Bass, i'm under the impression adds my EQ to it.

The non-direct out includes EQ, effects, tube stage, and any other processing that isn't your direct plain bass signal.

Should i be running a -20db out ever? or is that only for active.

Um, huh? Normal direct out is roughly around -20 dBu, but it rarely says that. Is there an INput or switch labeled -20 dB that you're referring to? As far as "for active", you only pad the input (or use an input labeled "active") if your bass is causing the input of the amp to distort in a way you don't like.

Any chance the head could have a bad tube causing a lame tone?

Possible but very unlikely. If the tube was bad, it just wouldn't work at all, or you'd be hearing other bad noises--not just poor tone.

Would the Jazz neck work against that p bass?

Nope.

 

[walterw]

nice bass (and +1 to the neck not being any sort of drawback) but that stack is kinda meh; do you use a lot of the effects in the mo'bass? if not, there are simpler, better-sounding, more powerful heads out there.

also, the cab combo is not so awesome; a matched pair of cabs you liked the sound of individually would more likely be stronger and more balanced.

 

[Stag]

Are you crossing over the two cabs or are you running both cabs full range?

crossing over, i believe it has an internal crossover, i run the switch on stereo, and left speakon for 2x10 and right for 1x18.

If that big ben is an 18" you are most likely too close to it to really hear what it's doing. I'd bet that 30 ft. away its thumpin' a plenty. Also instead of boosting the sub frequencies, try boosting upper bass/low mids. That's where the thump really lies anyhow.

You guys have a great point, where i am in the pictures is how i stand, there isnt much room, i'll grab a longer cable and try pushing it back as far as possible. I dont play for another two weeks though.

Stag,

What I can recommend is that you listen to the boards mix, especially how your soundman has you mixed down, and listen to the house mix (someone else will have to play bass). This will give you an idea what your guy thinks bass should sound like and how he has his subs crossed over. It is like NASCAR; you're the driver and he is the mechanic that is supposed to tailor your sound to the masses. If all of that is kosher, you can begin to worry about the stage sound, that is your domain, minus the monitors that is. Some of the simplest "I cant get the right sound coming back to me" fixes has been by having specific monitor mix with more kick drum and less vox and guitars. Personally I like it that way with vox and guitars and horns in the side fills. YMMV! Welcome to the working stiff musician class!

Thats very good stuff, i will try to find some recordings, as well as someone to play my bass, should this be done with the band playing?

Get a tech/sound guy/guitarist to play through your rig fully PA'd as it would be in performance and walk around the theatre to various seats and then see if it's still lacking that thump.

I've not personally done it, i've been told there are a few dead spots at the top of the theater.

Um, huh? Normal direct out is roughly around -20 dBu, but it rarely says that. Is there an INput or switch labeled -20 dB that you're referring to? As far as "for active", you only pad the input (or use an input labeled "active") if your bass is causing the input of the amp to distort in a way you don't like.

There is a switch. I'm trying to post a picture of the head, its +20 0 -20db switch below the mobass speakon out and direct out.

I'll post a pic tonight.

nice bass (and +1 to the neck not being any sort of drawback) but that stack is kinda meh; do you use a lot of the effects in the mo'bass? if not, there are simpler, better-sounding, more powerful heads out there.

also, the cab combo is not so awesome; a matched pair of cabs you liked the sound of individually would more likely be stronger and more balanced.

I use to MoBass effect when i want more presence. and the sub octive and overdrive on one song.

I'm leaning towards selling this gear and trying a TH500 with a 12 or two. We are moving to a smaller more intimate venue, holding 250 people max. I think i agree, its too complicated for what i do or need. or can comprehend!

 

[J-wall]

Stag,

Not to start a fight or anything with the guy that said this, but distance from your 18 should have nothing at all to do with your ability to hear the frequencies it is producing, especially if you have it crossed over fairly low like normal subs are. This is well documented on this board so please feel free to search it out in the amps forum. The myth states that due to wavelength of the notes in feet as the sine wave is produced that you have to be far away to hear it. If this were the case, the example used here so often is why then do headphones work?

True, frequencies may be louder at a distance, but that is because of something called standing waves as well as room cancellation, also well documented here and elsewhere.

I have no idea why your low end is not there, especially if you are using your amp crossed over for the sub out unless your 18 is out of phase with the house subs. Reversing its wiring internally will tell you that answer but may not be convenient or the problem. Do not boost lows to compensate for their perceived absence, that makes audio mud. I mean, people don't mind getting dirty, but usually not in their ears.

If I were you, I would try this: next time, try your 210 in full range mode, heck, don't wait till practice and try that now. If the 210 has better low end than you feel you get with the 18, then there is a problem with the 18 or how it is connected or how the amp is operating it.

I had an Eden WT800 that would bi-amp and it had both a frequency selector for the crossover as well as a level knob to balance the output between the "low" out and the "high" out. I am not familiar with a MoBass, but it is worth investigating. Thise knobs could be on the front or the back.

Good luck!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

In large venues your 'problem' is for the engineer to sort out, not you.
I never really sound check a hall/venue unless the engineer wants one, the sound check is for them not me.
If you have not yet realised it, your tone, sound, lack of whatever is your problem etc, is a perception you put on the situation.
In the end problems are resolved by turning down and letting the engineers shape the sound, then send it back through foldback/side fills.

I tour and play many venues from outdoor festival, stadium, halls, theatres etc and have done for more years than i care to remember.
The one thing that is consistant in all this is my amp settings barely change....unless i want to turn down. My rig is small and for me, if others want to hear me, they ask for it in their foldback, the audience will hear what FOH lets them hear, i will hear what what i need to hear....the notes i play.

This is why i say your sound is perception, because what you hear on stage is not how it sounds FOH, when you accept this, life playing large venues is easy because you have no worries or time wasting chasing a bass sound that is solved by turning down.

 

[mbelue]

crossing over, i believe it has an internal crossover, i run the switch on stereo, and left speakon for 2x10 and right for 1x18.



You guys have a great point, where i am in the pictures is how i stand, there isnt much room, i'll grab a longer cable and try pushing it back as far as possible. I dont play for another two weeks though.



Thats very good stuff, i will try to find some recordings, as well as someone to play my bass, should this be done with the band playing?



I've not personally done it, i've been told there are a few dead spots at the top of the theater.



There is a switch. I'm trying to post a picture of the head, its +20 0 -20db switch below the mobass speakon out and direct out.

I'll post a pic tonight.




I use to MoBass effect when i want more presence. and the sub octive and overdrive on one song.

I'm leaning towards selling this gear and trying a TH500 with a 12 or two. We are moving to a smaller more intimate venue, holding 250 people max. I think i agree, its too complicated for what i do or need. or can comprehend!

The mo' bass does not do bi-amping. It does wet/dry which is one side with effects the other without. It is a item in my GAS list I haven't gotten to yet.
Crossed over refers to a bi amp capable amp like a gk 800rb.
If you can try a different cab or only one in a different setting and knob twiddle till you get the lows your looking for. Then add the second cab and determine how much better or worse it got.
I recommend only the main eq and no effects to start.
KISS method FTW.

 

[Stone Soup]

Crossed over refers to a bi amp capable amp like a gk 800rb.

Yes. Exactly. Crossovers separate the signal at a set frequency and send the lower frequencies in one direction and the higher frequencies in another (such as two different amps powering two different cabinets). Eeach cabinet is then producing a different range of frequencies and either cab is not producing the same frequencies as the other.

 

[TimmyP]

Unless used in a very large venue, most any rig will usually be too loud in the house within a certain frequency range. It's a PITA mixing around it. Keep it wimpy on stage, and let the sub spill give you the thump on stage.