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Cant get my head around "transparency"
- Thread starter scouse2000
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to op's point. how can any amp be transparent?
look at any amp that has bass, mid and treble or bass, low mid, hi mid, treble or any eq on a amp. those knobs have a frequency that can be boosted or cut. every amp manufacture uses different frequencies for each knob. the unboosted, uncut (flat) eq is part the amps baked in sound.
my amp has a four band parametric eq. i have looked at other amp makers frequencies and changed my frequencies bands to there specs. if i make the frequencies on my amp the same as a gk or mesa does it sound the same as those amps. no because there are other factors to the sound a amp produces.
i can relate to bassman's example of "transparent" for an acoustic bass but electric basses are electric. they don't make a usable sound with out amplification so they don't have an inherent transparency.
look at any amp that has bass, mid and treble or bass, low mid, hi mid, treble or any eq on a amp. those knobs have a frequency that can be boosted or cut. every amp manufacture uses different frequencies for each knob. the unboosted, uncut (flat) eq is part the amps baked in sound.
my amp has a four band parametric eq. i have looked at other amp makers frequencies and changed my frequencies bands to there specs. if i make the frequencies on my amp the same as a gk or mesa does it sound the same as those amps. no because there are other factors to the sound a amp produces.
i can relate to bassman's example of "transparent" for an acoustic bass but electric basses are electric. they don't make a usable sound with out amplification so they don't have an inherent transparency.
I think Steve's answer is right on. Unfortunately, I don't play double bass (not that skilled); but it's much easier to understand the "transparent" concept in relation to the acoustic bass instrument. With that said, I have found the newer Epifani cabs (the UL and Distro cabs) to be good representations of "transparent" sound, and that's why I dislike them so much.
Personally, I want/need a colored, covered sound to cover up my mediocre playing/chops! There is a fundamental sound that typical wood, typical strings, and typical pickups typically produce when they operate together. This fundamental tone is often referred to as "uncolored" because people are used to hearing that kind of sound.
Some amps reproduce this tone faithfully, which is why they are referred to as "transparent." Others, alter the sound in some noticeable manner (typically in some shift in the EQ) which is why they are referred to as "colored."
Some amps reproduce this tone faithfully, which is why they are referred to as "transparent." Others, alter the sound in some noticeable manner (typically in some shift in the EQ) which is why they are referred to as "colored."
In my mind, there is only one thing that's better than transparent: Musical!
It's true, some sounds are just plain musical and they make playing fun. I can think of distortion pedals, pickups, and amps that are all inherently musical because of the sounds they produce.
Amps that can be EQ'd in radical ways, and still retain useful tones in a typical context, are a good example of what I mean.
It's true, some sounds are just plain musical and they make playing fun. I can think of distortion pedals, pickups, and amps that are all inherently musical because of the sounds they produce.
Amps that can be EQ'd in radical ways, and still retain useful tones in a typical context, are a good example of what I mean.
Yes, you are.
Transparent means what goes in comes out the same. If I take my bass into a studio and run it through a DI into a mixing board and listen in the control room over the monitors, well that is pretty transparent. Bass amps usually do not sound like that
That's why some people go buy "amp emulators" (like SansAmp stuff) for recording without an amp.You can measure things like frequency response and distortion and a transparent amp rig should have very flat response and low distortion levels. Guess what, not many bass amps have either. Amp coloration can be very pleasing to your ears. I love the classic tube amp sound as much as anybody, but vintage Fenders and Ampeg are far from transparent.
While I can't easily test speaker response myself, I have put some of my amps onto the test bench and measured them. The measurements largely confirmed what my ears told me. Even at low levels my 1961 Fender Bassman had significant harmonic distortion. My Fender Rumble 500 with all EQ at 12:00 had a bump in the low midrange making it sound "beefy". My SWR Baby Blue was quite flat until just above 1 kHz and then there was a small 1 or 2 dB boost which was flat right out to 20 kHz making the amp have a very open high end. My AMP BH420 was flat until about 12 kHz then response slowly rolled off so next to the SWR it sounded a little darker.
to my point. how do you know what the "true" sound of a bass is? you have to amplify it to hear it. the amplification will color the sound of the bass.
^^^^^ This!!
Flat frequency response across the board. If you want to boost or cut something, it is easy to do because you are NOT fighting the built in voicing of the speaker cab or amplifier.
If you ever hear an Eden XLT speaker cab next to one of their XST speaker cabs, you'll notice the difference. Difference is that the XLT has a low-mid hump (boost) voiced into the cabinet and the XST does not. You can make the XST sound like an XLT by dialing in some low-mid boost on your amp, but you really can't make an XLT cab sound like an XST cab. After David Nordschow designed the XST cabs he was surprised to find out that many people still preferred the XLT. Both series of cabs are still available from Eden, even though David left them back in about 2009.
The cab I have, David Nordschow Amplification's DNS410, is David Nordschow's latest iteration of speaker cab. It has an extremely flat frequency response and I dial in about 3-clicks of boost at 250Hz because I like that sound and it helps me sit in the mix better. So the advantage of a "transparent" amplifier is that you don't have to fight the specific voicing that some other amps/speakers might have built in.
One other thing real quick, which is another way of looking at transparency. Solid State amps are often called "transparent" or sometimes "sterile" because they don't add anything to the signal. Valve amps (tube amps) on the other hand almost always color the sound due to their harmonic distortion. That colored sound is the warmth that you often hear about in tube amps. If you push the power tubes in an all-valve amp hard, you get a very audible distortion that is known as "overdrive". It's usually a pretty nice, warm, distortion and is night and day different than distortion pedal "fuzz" or "dirt". Jimi Hendrix used that overdrive distortion a lot. Compare that sound to some current metal sounds and you'll hear the difference.
I have a hybrid amp that uses just one tube in the preamp specifically to get that warmth of sound. Because my amps design puts it in the impedance section operating within specific parameters, there's no chance I'll ever get an overdrive sound out of it. That's fine with me, if I want overdrive or distortion, I'll buy a pedal (not much chance). I'm currently using my back-up amp, Eden Nemesis RS400, while my WT500/800 is in the shop and it doesn't have the warmth that my WT has. That "tube warmth" can be emulated with the proper chip, but my RS400 doesn't have that. The difference between the two amps is pretty subtle but you can definitely hear it. You could call my RS400 "more transparent" than my WT500/800. So that's another way you may hear "transparent" used when referring to amps.
Definitely listening to a bass going through a high quality DI in a recording studio will give very close to transparent. Very dry, immediate, lots of highs so everything sounds a bit thin and "stringy" as one engineer/drummer I used to play with would say. No note bloom, nor much richness in the mids or bass. A bit of EQ - a bump around 250 to 400, and maybe some cut around 1k to 2.5k - and some nice compression can make a subtle change, but nevertheless a great change to something that actually sounds good.
Most "transparent" production bass gear, like Eden, SWR, and Markbass to my ear tends to have a slight baked in sound to more approximate the latter studio sound; not completely transparent, but instead slightly sweetened with some very mild EQ and compression. The compression, or compression-esque response, come from the pre-amp while the baked in EQ was usually in the cabinets.
A really transparent electric bass tone is seldom what is called for.
Most "transparent" production bass gear, like Eden, SWR, and Markbass to my ear tends to have a slight baked in sound to more approximate the latter studio sound; not completely transparent, but instead slightly sweetened with some very mild EQ and compression. The compression, or compression-esque response, come from the pre-amp while the baked in EQ was usually in the cabinets.
A really transparent electric bass tone is seldom what is called for.
Do you mean like Bootsy's Rubber Band?
I love transparency when it comes to my home stereo system. For musical instrument amplification, it depends, as the amplifier's sound is a major contributor to producing music, vs. reproducing music on my stereo.
LOL! SWR transparent? Well I guess if you call a giant mid scoop transparent...
As for the tube amp comment, it may interest you to know that there are plenty of tube amps that are dead transparent with knobs at noon. Ampeg currently makes two of them, too...V4B and PF-50T.
SWR absolutely does. But I don't know about all Markbass gear, but the Little Mark II and III are dead flat with knobs at noon.
to those claiming this amp is transparent or that amp is transparent. how do you know?
you can never know what an electric bass "really" sounds like because you have to amplify it and the amp and speaker will color the sound. the sound of the bass is the bass + the amp/cab. the bass doesn't make sound in a vacuum. it needs a amp/cab to hear.
if you play a p bass through 10 different amps can you tell me which one is most transparent? how do you know that amp "c" is reproducing the true sound of the p bass?
i guess i can't get my head around this either because i think transparency is a myth.
you can never know what an electric bass "really" sounds like because you have to amplify it and the amp and speaker will color the sound. the sound of the bass is the bass + the amp/cab. the bass doesn't make sound in a vacuum. it needs a amp/cab to hear.
if you play a p bass through 10 different amps can you tell me which one is most transparent? how do you know that amp "c" is reproducing the true sound of the p bass?
i guess i can't get my head around this either because i think transparency is a myth.
Do you mean like Bootsy's Rubber Band?
Uh, no Baba. But, uh, Bootsy Baby sure can stretch on out...
I found SWR heads pretty flat but their cabs were pretty scooped, no doubt.
And I was referring to YOU KNOW WHO when I mentioned "that tube sound". And I know you can't help yourself but to push their product, but geez...
You calling me a liar, dude? Look up Bass Gear Magazine's review of the V4B if you don't believe me. And the PF-50T sounds nearly identical. And watch who you call a liar. I don't appreciate that at all.
LIAR!?!? No, no, no - I'm calling you... Suggesting that you might be... eh... An "Enthusiast". Yes, that's the word.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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Invalid Link RemovedLIAR!?!? No, no, no - I'm calling you... Suggesting that you might be... eh... An "Enthusiast". Yes, that's the word.
P. 39:
"The V-4B tone stack is geared towards making 'optimally flat' settings a breeze. The recipe is simple: Bass, Midrange, and Treble controls at 'noon,' Ultra Hi and Ultra Lo off, mid frequency switch anywhere...done."
I expect an apology.
