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Can't Get Vocal Delay To "Fit"

KingRazor

KingRazor

Jun 4, 2010
6,747
415
37
Beaverton, Oregon USA
#1
I've been trying to dial in a nice delay effect on the board at my church (Roland M400 V-Mixer) but it never seems quite right. I use the tap tempo to try and get it to fit with the song, but the band isn't always super tight on tempo, and the songs very by a few bpms each, so I wind up having to change it a lot, and it just seems like too much of it unless I turn it down to where you can't really hear it. So I just wind up going with a reverb most of the time.

Any ideas? Or should I just stick with reverb?
 
#3
Wes Whitmore said:
I would think delay tempo needs to be set at least every song at a minimum. If the band can't hold a steady tempo, you will have to reset the tempo more often, or stop using it so much. Reverb is easier probably.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm usually too busy with other things to sit there and tap out the tempo every time they change songs. Reverb doesn't seem to be as picky. I can kind of just throw it on and it sounds fine.
 
#5
If the delay time or feedback on the delay is short enough, the precision on the tap tempo isn't vital, but it can still add some meat to the channel. If the delay time is much shorter than an 8th note, and the feedback is a little longer, the delay has a reverb like effect, but is still distinctly different from reverb.

I made a little one take recording a long while back where I thought the drum machine and the delay time on my multi were synced in some way. It played itself out OK, but when I listened to it later it was apparent that the delay and drum machine weren't synced. It sounded OK. Pretty good actually where my playing didn't screw it up. Sometimes not being synced sounds plain bad, but not always.

For longer delay times, I'm giving a big +1 to Wes.

Reverb on vocals is still pretty awesome though. It's a pretty good fallback.

Here's that recording:

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=7783247

The bad delay is on the bass and pitch shifted bass signal. It's not awful, but not dead on either. The vocals were all added after the fact. It was just a thing I did experimenting with some effects and the little recording equipment I had, so take it for what it's worth :hiding:.
 
#6
cheapbasslovin said:
If the delay time or feedback on the delay is short enough, the precision on the tap tempo isn't vital, but it can still add some meat to the channel. If the delay time is much shorter than an 8th note, and the feedback is a little longer, the delay has a reverb like effect, but is still distinctly different from reverb.

I made a little one take recording a long while back where I thought the drum machine and the delay time on my multi were synced in some way. It played itself out OK, but when I listened to it later it was apparent that the delay and drum machine weren't synced. It sounded OK. Pretty good actually where my playing didn't screw it up. Sometimes not being synced sounds plain bad, but not always.

For longer delay times, I'm giving a big +1 to Wes.

Reverb on vocals is still pretty awesome though. It's a pretty good fallback.

Here's that recording:

SoundClick artist: Mess With Texas - A couple of basses, a drum machine, a mic and a bunch of effects. What more could you ask for?

The bad delay is on the bass and pitch shifted bass signal. It's not awful, but not dead on either. The vocals were all added after the fact. It was just a thing I did experimenting with some effects and the little recording equipment I had, so take it for what it's worth :hiding:.
Click to expand...

I think I like the delay on that. It sounds purposeful, which is a big aspect I think. That and you can slap 10 times better than I can. :D
 
#7
You kids are spoiled with your tap tempos. We used to have to set the delay with a knob. Tempo sways are a fact of life with live music unless you put everyone on a click and suck the life out of the music. Just go with it.
 
#9
lowfreq33 said:
If the band can't keep a steady tempo then the band is the problem, not the effect.
Click to expand...
I miss the days when nobody cared about running a click on everything. It's one thing if you're blending live instruments with programmed instruments, but to use it on a band playing all their instruments live...that's something I'll never get.
 
#10
I don't disagree with you Jimmy.

In a live performance I don't think it's at all necessary for the band to be able to cohesively play to a click, so long as they are tight with each other. And this band is, for the most part.

I didn't used to worry about tempo for the delay but the built in delays in this board really sound off if you don't have the tempo right. To the point where sometimes I just don't use it at all. Our old board had more musical sounding effects, IMO.

Reverb isn't nearly as picky. I can kind of just throw it on and not worry about adjusting it. Which leaves me free to ride the faders.
 
#11
as for vocal delay, setting it to where "you can't really hear it" is probably a good idea anyway.

roll the highs off the delay sound itself, put a little reverb on the delay, and keep it down to where you notice it while somebody talks between songs (when you should shut it off) but not so much while singing.
 
#15
JimmyM said:
I miss the days when nobody cared about running a click on everything. It's one thing if you're blending live instruments with programmed instruments, but to use it on a band playing all their instruments live...that's something I'll never get.
Click to expand...

I don't mean everyone should be on a click, just not drastically speeding up or slowing down.
 
#16
ggunn said:
Predelay - putting delay before reverb - is a cool trick. It can make the straight signal stand out a bit more from the reverberation, and when your delay return is "wet" the timing is not as critical. I learned that trick from Blue Oyster Cult. :D
Click to expand...

Oooooooooooh predelay. I've seen that knob before. :D

I think I need to just find the right delay, or at least one with the right parameters. There's half a dozen different ones in the board.
 
#17
KingRazor said:
Oooooooooooh predelay. I've seen that knob before. :D

I think I need to just find the right delay, or at least one with the right parameters. There's half a dozen different ones in the board.
Click to expand...

IMO the best delay setting for predelay is just a single repeat timed to taste. If you listen to Blue Oyster Cult's "The Last Days in May" from their first album you can hear the snare drum going "pt---chhhh..." with about 250 msec between the "pt" and the "chhhh". That's where I recognized it first and stole the idea. Steal from the best.
 
#18
If you're just looking to fatten them up a bit try like 30ms of delay and very low 3-5% feedback. If you want a slapback effect bump the delay time up to around 100ms with a low feedback. Neither of those will require tempo matching. If you're looking for more pronounced vocal delays there really isn't much getting around tempo matching with the song imo.
 
#19
ggunn said:
Predelay - putting delay before reverb - is a cool trick. It can make the straight signal stand out a bit more from the reverberation, and when your delay return is "wet" the timing is not as critical. I learned that trick from Blue Oyster Cult. :D
Click to expand...
BOC, huh? that's cool!

i just kinda figured it out on my own, using boards with the delay coming back into a channel. i put some verb on that delay, but not directly on the vocal channels themselves, so the delay is "verbed"; it seems to let me have some "sauce" on the vocals that still stays out of the way.

for acoustic instruments (drums, acoustic guitars), i'd just use the straight verb by itself.

(although the vocal-style "verbed delay" is cool on horns for whatever reason, i guess because they behave more like vocals in a band context.)
 

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