Can't stand roundwound strings?

[jwilson67]

Before roundwounds hit the scene, everyone used flatwounds and could be heard just fine...



That doesn't really make any sense...myself and plenty of others play often on flats with no problems. My hands are callused like a rock climber's and I still can't stand how rounds feel.

Jeez. I have two basses - a 5-er strung up with rounds and and a 4 strung with flats. They each get used for different applications in the same show. It's just common sense. @Wiremessiah - If a band's mix sounds good does it really matter whether it is because of rounds or flats?? It's just common sense and use of ears. IF anything in most of the bands I've been in it's trying to get the keyboard player to turn down!

 

[jwilson67]

Flats and rounds BOTH have their place in a particular kind of music or player's setup. There is still this little thing called "ears" that you must use still. If your bass sounds too loud then more than likely it IS too loud. If you play in a Yes, Rush, Who, etc. tribute band I guarantee you that you will be playing rounds because THAT is the sound and no flat will substitute (no pun intended) for it. If I'm going to play in a Motown or Stax style band then I'm going to be rockin' some flats.

 

[jwilson67]

Producer and engineer are two succinctly different jobs. The underlying attitude that the musicians have no clue as to what they want the over all sound of their band to be is an outdated and disgusting model. Particularly in todays modern world where we have access to recording and mixing that even at a consumer grade level can produce product capable of broadcast standards. In other words, your job is disappearing rapidly. I know, I own a studio, and I engineer for many bands as well as my own projects. We let go of the commercial space because there just isnt enough market for it. We still have the gear, analog tape decks included. Granted its not 2" tape, it still gets the job done. The beauty of recording is that bands like Swervedriver, My Bloody Valentine, The white Stripes, Big Black, Joy Division, Tool, PJ Harvey, The Talking heads and so many others have ditched the long held standards by "educated" engineers and producers, and did what ever the hell they wanted too. Where as it defies your rigid structure and belief system. Ive had the horrendous experience of recording in large studios with overbearing engineers and producers. We told them to pound sand immediately and switched engineers. Yes, there is always a task of mixing levels and getting people a happy frequency spot, but your assumptions of why people play bass are way off the mark, totally unfounded and unrealistic. Again, many bassists dont seek to stand out, nor be louder, they prefer a more subdued tone and or to be down in the mix. Soundgarden is a perfect example of this. And again another band that decided to hell with the producer and engineer and did whatever the hell they wanted in the studio. Where your task comes in, is how to get the desired sound that the band wants you to get. Whether your the recording engineer or the mixing engineer or both, and hopefully you have an open mind as where and how to achieve that. From your arguments here though, its clear that you have a finite opinion on how a mix should sound, what the musicians should do to achieve this and how to go about it. Textbook ego that was prevalent in the 80's and even early 90's in the studio. Wether you like the loudness wars or not, the current high compressed lack of dynamics is here and its not going away anytime soon in hard rock, metal, progressive metal, pop, and pop punk, pop country and current country. If you dont want to deal with that, try out other genres that are still more conventional.

Word.

 

[jwilson67]

From Michael Rhodes - "D'Addario has the variety of product that satisfies every tone I need. Tapewound to steel roundwound- and everything in between. Professional, consistent quality - always."

I would assume that he is referring to the fact that he plays every type of string there is depending on which of the thousands of recording sessions he's done demands it. There is a place and a need for all types of strings, not just flats or rounds.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Jeez. I have two basses - a 5-er strung up with rounds and and a 4 strung with flats. They each get used for different applications in the same show. It's just common sense. @Wiremessiah - If a band's mix sounds good does it really matter whether it is because of rounds or flats?? It's just common sense and use of ears. IF anything in most of the bands I've been in it's trying to get the keyboard player to turn down!

If course not, but the reason for using rou ds is often because of the subconscious or conscious need for more brightness and loudness.

Mixing is both much more simple and much tougher than most people think. Its simple in that there are only two basic parameters, relative loudness and relative brightness. Its tougher beacuse adjusting these two parameters among multiple tracks has an infinitely continuous variability. When you make one track darker or softer, you are making the rest brighter and louder. Thats hard to perceive because when one does moves on a mixer, they are not always perfectly level matching. Same goes with the brightness of a bass. Its the easiest thing in the world to a/b flats and rounds and say rounds sound better because even a small amount of brightness will sound better in comparison. And the brighter the bass, the more you eat into the other instruments frequency range. This may sound good as a bass player but not as a mixer, unless you specifically want it.

The brighter your bass is the less low end it has, and the less space higher tuned instruments will have. In mixing, you want everything to occupy its own space and range as much as possible, so you dont run into frequency masking and such.

 

[Wiremessiah]

From Michael Rhodes - "D'Addario has the variety of product that satisfies every tone I need. Tapewound to steel roundwound- and everything in between. Professional, consistent quality - always."

I would assume that he is referring to the fact that he plays every type of string there is depending on which of the thousands of recording sessions he's done demands it. There is a place and a need for all types of strings, not just flats or rounds.

That or hes plugging daddario. Whats he gonna say " daddario has great flats but their rounds and tapes are crap".

 

[jwilson67]

That or hes plugging daddario. Whats he gonna say " daddario has great flats but their rounds and tapes are crap".

Do you really know what you are talking about or are you just trolling this site? I notice you just joined. Of course he plays all of those strings. Are you familiar with him at all? Are you knowledgeable about small time players like Pino Palladino? You know, guys who play all types of strings depending on the situation?

 

[jwilson67]

What do you guys all think happens if a session player shows up with basses strung only with flat wounds and the artist, engineer, or producer says "we want that really bright bass sound on this track"?

And vice-versa.

Just take a guess.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Do you really know what you are talking about or are you just trolling this site? I notice you just joined. Of course he plays all of those strings. Are you familiar with him at all? Are you knowledgeable about small time players like Pino Palladino? You know, guys who play all types of strings depending on the situation?

Okay but that doesnt mean hes not plugging them.

 

[Wiremessiah]

What do you guys all think happens if a session player shows up with basses strung only with flat wounds and the artist, engineer, or producer says "we want that really bright bass sound on this track"?

And vice-versa.

Just take a guess.

What does that have to do with anything? Has nothing to do with whether they are better or not. The artist may ask for a singing monkey that doesnt mean it has a better voice than pavarotti.

 

[SteveCS]

...
IF anything in most of the bands I've been in it's trying to get the keyboard player to turn down!

LOL! They should have the volume knob attached to one of those dead man's handles like train drivers have, but only operable by the left hand.
YMMV, I suppose...

 

[jwilson67]

What does that have to do with anything? Has nothing to do with whether they are better or not. The artist may ask for a singing monkey that doesnt mean it has a better voice than pavarotti.

What is your point then? You wouldn't listen to the artist or producer and offer your advice to them and the musicians that flatwounds are the way to go and that "brightness" isn't what they are looking for?

Flats don't sound better than rounds. They sound different.

 

[Wiremessiah]

What is your point then? You wouldn't listen to the artist or producer and offer your advice to them and the musicians that flatwounds are the way to go and that "brightness" isn't what they are looking for?

Flats don't sound better than rounds. They sound different.

Thats just one scenario. If you are a session player you are hired to give them what they want. What they want has nothing to do with what is ideal. I think flats are better in the sense that regular basses are better than piccolo basses. If piccolo basses are your thing, even for a particular use, i cant argue with it. But i can say that the essence of what a bass is at least somewhat lost in a piccolo. You may want to transcend or subvert what the bass is, the function of the instrument is what it is.

 

[BAG]

Rosewood is only SLIGHTY softer than Ebony.

One of the big myths regarding fretless is that roundwound strings will destroy your fingerboard. I've used rounds on Rosewood for decades, and with low action, and a soft touch, your fingerboard might need to be redressed after 5-10 years.

I agree, and there's plenty of very good rosewood fretless basses out there. Like any wood, there can be quite large variations in the structure of different pieces. My luthier was only commenting on that particular piece on my fretless which was so worn that in some places the dents in the 'board were more than half the diameter of the A string.

In saying that, rounds will wear the 'board faster.....but not as much as some people would lead you to believe.

 

[Wiremessiah]

I agree, and there's plenty of very good rosewood fretless basses out there. Like any wood, there can be quite large variations in the structure of different pieces. My luthier was only commenting on that particular piece on my fretless which was so worn that in some places the dents in the 'board were more than half the diameter of the A string.

In saying that, rounds will wear the 'board faster.....but not as much as some people would lead you to believe.

Have you seen an ebony bass before? A guy made one out of solid ebony. Its the brightest bass i ever heard.

 

[petrus61]

I think if someone could come up with a flat in the exact gauges and stiffness as Sunbeams, they'd do very well, but I'm an idiot.

 

[bluesblaster]

What do you guys all think happens if a session player shows up with basses strung only with flat wounds and the artist, engineer, or producer says "we want that really bright bass sound on this track"?

And vice-versa.

Just take a guess.

that's what "the producer switch" is for

seriously, who shows up for a session with just one bass, unless your a friend of the artist and he loves your flatwound bass tone and brings you in specifically for that reason.

 

[davy4575]

If course not, but the reason for using rou ds is often because of the subconscious or conscious need for more brightness and loudness.

Mixing is both much more simple and much tougher than most people think. Its simple in that there are only two basic parameters, relative loudness and relative brightness. Its tougher beacuse adjusting these two parameters among multiple tracks has an infinitely continuous variability. When you make one track darker or softer, you are making the rest brighter and louder. Thats hard to perceive because when one does moves on a mixer, they are not always perfectly level matching. Same goes with the brightness of a bass. Its the easiest thing in the world to a/b flats and rounds and say rounds sound better because even a small amount of brightness will sound better in comparison. And the brighter the bass, the more you eat into the other instruments frequency range. This may sound good as a bass player but not as a mixer, unless you specifically want it.

The brighter your bass is the less low end it has, and the less space higher tuned instruments will have. In mixing, you want everything to occupy its own space and range as much as possible, so you dont run into frequency masking and such.

Hmmm. So then, If im reading this and your other posts correctly, it would be fair to say that you dont really like a bright sounding bass? Your posts seem to infer a general disdain for it. So, yes certain instruments occupy primary frequency ranges and then have harmonics in others. If a band has a bright sounding bass tone, pretty simple to shift focus on the other instruments in that frequency range. Bright dosnt always mean cutting the low end, in fact one can slightly cut low mids and accomplish the same thing. Also panning and phase goes a long way in getting some separation. Also band specific compression. The thing is, as a mixing engineer, rather than just complaining and wining about how bassists seem to like bright tones better and inferring that is bad and they should just be happy with a sublime tone so that your job is easier, maybe you get creative and have a positive attitude of making it work. Maybe have an indepth listen to Tools discography, Janes Addiction and even Eric Avery's solo work, Big Black and Steve Albini's work in general. Joy Division, One of these Days by Pink Floyd, Godsmack, Them Crooked Vultures - You may have even heard of that bassist, hes kinda famous. All of these artists managed to have a bright bass tone without sacrificing low end, and pretty sure the engineers worked on those projects without complaint.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Hmmm. So then, If im reading this and your other posts correctly, it would be fair to say that you dont really like a bright sounding bass? Your posts seem to infer a general disdain for it. So, yes certain instruments occupy primary frequency ranges and then have harmonics in others. If a band has a bright sounding bass tone, pretty simple to shift focus on the other instruments in that frequency range. Bright dosnt always mean cutting the low end, in fact one can slightly cut low mids and accomplish the same thing. Also panning and phase goes a long way in getting some separation. Also band specific compression. The thing is, as a mixing engineer, rather than just complaining and wining about how bassists seem to like bright tones better and inferring that is bad and they should just be happy with a sublime tone so that your job is easier, maybe you get creative and have a positive attitude of making it work. Maybe have an indepth listen to Tools discography, Janes Addiction and even Eric Avery's solo work, Big Black and Steve Albini's work in general. Joy Division, One of these Days by Pink Floyd, Godsmack, Them Crooked Vultures - You may have even heard of that bassist, hes kinda famous. All of these artists managed to have a bright bass tone without sacrificing low end, and pretty sure the engineers worked on those projects without complaint.

I do make it work, I don't know why you keep assuming all this negativity towards my engineering. i am just sharing how it is with most bassists/bands. I detect a substantial amount of anger and bad will in your posts, when I am just trying to share a perspective. and condescension as well, as if I don't know what panning or multi band compression is, the difference between producer and engineer, or songs with bright bass. I don't understand how you can tell me to be creative and have a positive attitude all the while trying to insult me.

I am the most positive person you will ever meet. But I am not going to lie about my experience, I am just telling you like it is. Sorry if that offends you. And I have never had any unsatisfied clients, other than people who wanted me to work for free.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Given that this topic has only been flogged about 400 times in the past, it's amazing to me that it has generated 10 pages of discussion.