Double Bass Carbon fibre double basses

[Bruce Lindfield]

Dizzy probably had that upward bent bell for show more than for sound.

Wasn't the story that he sat on it - but liked the sound...so he kept it like that?

I suppose I tend to think natural wood grain is beautiful, whereas shiny solid colours are just 'tacky'.... ?

 

[Bob Rogers]

I've noticed a worrying trend - so I don't know if anybody else has looked at things like Classic FM TV - where they have videos of what's in the Classical charts...

Well why I mention it, is that they seem to be full of obviously manufactured groups of women who look like Models, but are ostensibly playing Violins,Violas, Cellos etc. Invariably they are playing carbon fibre instruments, presumably as they look "modern" and don't have associations with stuffy, real music....

Anybody else noticed this - can throw more light on this trend?

Don't let it worry you Bruce. Look at the audiences at classical concerts; check the actuarial tables; get a good estimate of the exact date that classical will be dead. You won't have to worry about crass commercialism in a genre that no one plays or listens to.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well I suppose you're right in that this phenomenon has not reached the kind of concerts I go to and there are big audiences for say Mahler symphony by a top orchestra - I just worry that the money from recordings will go to acts based on appearance, rather than "substance" (thanks Ed ) and future generations will be influenced by where the money goes...

I do remember going to classical concerts with a certain group of friends and one of the guys used to always be pointing out how many attractive young women there were in string sections ....

I suppose this fact was noticed by record producers as well ....?

 

[D McCartney]

I have a question about this colored violin thing that may be better addressed in a different forum. Is classical music too stuffy? (moderator, please change if appropriate thanx)
If you could get a high end sound out of a CF instrument, (which is a mighty big if), would it find a place in a major symphony? Image is important in the entertainment industry, and classical, believe it or not, is part of that industry.
Brightly colored instruments may not have the "serious" look that goes with the years of intensive training required to play at classical levels. But Bruce's fears may be well founded, in that bright colors are attractive, especially to younger people. Could you see Andre Rieu having such instruments in his orchestra someday? (IF they were of the necessary quality of sound)
I kind of doubt that you will ever see a CF sound like a 300yo masters. But public taste in what sounds good could very easily change.
Then there is the aspect that brightly colored instruments in the limelight could attract a child to classical that otherwise may have gone a different direction.
Just some of my thoughts.
Dwight

 

[Wilbyman]

Guys- maybe there's a thread on this, but I'm curious whether anyone has tried a diamondwood (compressed birch composite) fingerboard on DB. I have a fretless slab with a diamondwood board and love it. It is a very hard material, but still gives up a warm sound (unlike graphite) with tons of sustain and growl.

 

[Silversorcerer]

Well I suppose you're right in that this phenomenon has not reached the kind of concerts I go to and there are big audiences for say Mahler symphony by a top orchestra - I just worry that the money from recordings will go to acts based on appearance, rather than "substance" (thanks Ed ) and future generations will be influenced by where the money goes...

I do remember going to classical concerts with a certain group of friends and one of the guys used to always be pointing out how many attractive young women there were in string sections ....

I suppose this fact was noticed by record producers as well ....?

Well, I guess I'm in the wrong country. Seems that in America it has been appearance over substance for quite some time, particularly in pop music culture. So much so that any real music enthusiast has learned to ignore the mass media marketing machine. Small pockets of high quality, challenging performerances exist. Like the baroque ensemble who obviously were using some pretty retro wooden instruments at the Gwinnett Civic Center this week. Also not to be missed is the current Richard Thompson tour featuring balding and greying (and ever so distinguished) Danny Thompson playing his centuries old French double bass. The crowd at that show was a breath of fresh air and obviously immune to hype and slick packaging. Danny is nothing short of incredible (free advertizing);- don't miss that one if it comes your way, Bruce. I am ever on the alert for such.

The "you have to be beautiful also" aspect is somewhat frightening to me. But the trend of make-overs and hiring for a "look" instead of a "sound" has been pervasive in the American music industry for years. Even true rags-to-riches working-class hero Elvis had to get a nose job.

The trend toward slick space age looking instruments played by modelesque women that Bruce talks about is just another area where the mass corporatization of just about everything is beginning to show. It does have a spooky Orwellian component. But all of that is hopefully a passing fad. Humans become momentarily facinated by what is newly possible (like computer generated special effects). The facination will hopefully wear off as soon as CF market saturation occurs. Still, I doubt that anyone building a CF instrument had any of that in mind. They saw a need and tried to build a suitable product. Modern mystique was almost certainly the afterwork of the marketeers.

Personally, I am saying my good-byes to any material that is dependent/derived from the petroleum industry. I don't want to rehash that debate (you can see it in the CF bow round-up thread) but the best thing about wood is that you can always grow some more. Even if it takes a couple hundred years, that is way faster than the world petroleum resources will be replenished. And CF is not indestructible. It develops stress fractures that are not so easily repaired as wood, even if it takes quite a bit more stress to cause them. In the long run, what is CF and what is wood, assuming both remain economically available, will settle out the way polyester fibers did versus cotton. If durability is the most important factor, it will be CF. If sound is most important, or sounding like wood is most important, or feeling like wood is most important, or being easily carved with hand tools, it will be made of wood. Just my opinion.

 

[Andy Allen]

Also not to be missed is the current Richard Thompson tour featuring balding and greying (and ever so distinguished) Danny Thompson playing his centuries old French double bass. The crowd at that show was a breath of fresh air and obviously immune to hype and slick packaging. Danny is nothing short of incredible (free advertizing);- don't miss that one if it comes your way, Bruce. I am ever on the alert for such.

I caught RT & DT in Los Angeles recently - wonderful show. Danny Thompson was my first influence on DB, and he didn't disappoint.

+1 on the other stuff I snipped from SS's post. There is a minority that is not sucked into the corporate hype machine, but thankfully not so many, as they (we) don't attract the big gun's sights as something to focus their exploitative money-making machines on.

 

[Aleph5]

...I don't want to rehash that debate (you can see it in the CF bow round-up thread) but the best thing about wood is that you can always grow some more. Even if it takes a couple hundred years...

Not to rehash, but what if all the wood is gone? Could it become extinct, not to return ever? What really matters is whether it's sustainable. Can it be replaced as fast as it's harvested? And what do we do for 200 years while waiting for the next Brazilian Rosewood? OTOH, there will always be oil in the ground. It will just get more expensive to retrieve, until the rest is abandoned for a more economically viable alternative.

Also, the amount of oil going to CF, let alone for musical instrument use, has got to be negligible. Does anybody know whether many of the precious woods used, like spuce and pernambuco, are sustainable? Increasing price and/or declining quality would be indicators against.

...Personally, I am saying my good-byes to any material that is dependent/derived from the petroleum industry...

How on earth are you doing this? I wish I knew your secret. How do you avoid plastic and traveling, just to start with?

 

[Aleph5]

Guys- maybe there's a thread on this, but I'm curious whether anyone has tried a diamondwood (compressed birch composite) fingerboard on DB. I have a fretless slab with a diamondwood board and love it. It is a very hard material, but still gives up a warm sound (unlike graphite) with tons of sustain and growl.

Whose diamondwood do you have? If the Moses DW is the same stuff (Steve Mosher once explained to me what theirs is, but I don't recall), I have both: A KP-4 EUB with just graphite and a VJ-5 with the diamondwood fb over the graphite/CF. I agree the DW feels warmer and is very pretty too! The graphite alone feels rather plastic-y by comparison. I don't know if I notice much difference in tone, though I've never thought to compare them directly for that. They both have good sustain & growl. Maybe I'll listen more for that.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have a question about this colored violin thing that may be better addressed in a different forum. Is classical music too stuffy? (moderator, please change if appropriate thanx)

I suppose it depends what you mean by "stuffy" and "classical music" - I could give you several conflicting definitions!!

But generally I see it as the music that has stood the test of time and is basically repertoire-driven - some may argue, but an audience that expects to hear Beethoven and Brahms is going to be pretty annoyed if they turn up and the orchestra decides to play some improvisations on aleatory charts based on a transcription of the Big Bang !!

If you could get a high end sound out of a CF instrument, (which is a mighty big if), would it find a place in a major symphony?

I haven't seen one yet, in Europe - I'm hoping it stays that way!!

Image is important in the entertainment industry, and classical, believe it or not, is part of that industry.

Well - they might say they are "artists" rather than entertainers.... ?

Brightly colored instruments may not have the "serious" look that goes with the years of intensive training required to play at classical levels. But Bruce's fears may be well founded, in that bright colors are attractive, especially to younger people. Could you see Andre Rieu having such instruments in his orchestra someday? (IF they were of the necessary quality of sound)
I kind of doubt that you will ever see a CF sound like a 300yo masters. But public taste in what sounds good could very easily change.

Well - I still expect that the best violinists won't turn down the chance to play that Stradivarius...?

Then there is the aspect that brightly colored instruments in the limelight could attract a child to classical that otherwise may have gone a different direction.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing...?

I'm not sure!

I remember ELO!!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Also not to be missed is the current Richard Thompson tour featuring balding and greying (and ever so distinguished) Danny Thompson playing his centuries old French double bass. The crowd at that show was a breath of fresh air and obviously immune to hype and slick packaging. Danny is nothing short of incredible (free advertizing);- don't miss that one if it comes your way, Bruce. I am ever on the alert for such.
.

Well yes - that the kind of thing I now look for - since getting into middle-age and having long given up any idea that I might be a pop star I look for people who are dedicated to music and their craft..

I find this in Jazz groups I see every week - with many DB players who are just as good as Danny Thompson and about as concerned of their image/packaging etc...

I do still find it in Classical Concerts in London - we do have the Proms series which is unique I think in presenting a wide range of music and funded by the BBC, so not generally driven by commercial pressures...

But I do read that orchestras are coming under increasing financial pressure and I hope the don't succumb to "dumbing down" and "presentation" over content!!

 

[Wilbyman]

Whose diamondwood do you have? If the Moses DW is the same stuff (Steve Mosher once explained to me what theirs is, but I don't recall), I have both: A KP-4 EUB with just graphite and a VJ-5 with the diamondwood fb over the graphite/CF. I agree the DW feels warmer and is very pretty too! The graphite alone feels rather plastic-y by comparison. I don't know if I notice much difference in tone, though I've never thought to compare them directly for that. They both have good sustain & growl. Maybe I'll listen more for that.

A-

I've got a Roscoe fretless. I had a Modulus fretless, and you describe the difference pretty accurately. I would love to hear diamondwood on a true acoustic URB, though I'm sure it sounds great on your EUB too.

W

 

[Silversorcerer]

Not to rehash, but what if all the wood is gone? Could it become extinct, not to return ever?

The nature of forests is cyclical. If we cut them all down at once we will die from lack of oxygen and then we won't be worried about such foolishness as music. Even if we perished this way, it is likely that the forests would return in less than 1000 yrs. They don't need much O2 to get started.

What really matters is whether it's sustainable. Can it be replaced as fast as it's harvested?

Sustainability is a separate issue. Even if we use up all the trees, eventually they will grow back, and much sooner than any fossil fuel could be naturally produced

And what do we do for 200 years while waiting for the next Brazilian Rosewood?

I think most players and makers would agree that walnut, mahogany, or other woods would be better substitutes than CF or other material, unless you like Ovations.

OTOH, there will always be oil in the ground. It will just get more expensive to retrieve, until the rest is abandoned for a more economically viable alternative.

And the more economically viable alternative is?????

Also, the amount of oil going to CF, let alone for musical instrument use, has got to be negligible.

There is quite a bit of cheap energy used in the production of CF. It is not just that it involves petroleum derivitives, it requires engergy beyond what is received from the sun (the only new engery that comes to earth).

Does anybody know whether many of the precious woods used, like spuce and pernambuco, are sustainable? Increasing price and/or declining quality would be indicators against.

Any tree species can be responsibly havested and most can be plantation grown. Pernambucco is related to the Black Locust and Honey Locust trees. It is actually a remnant tree from a former colder forest than the one where is currently persists. Given that, it would be a more difficult tree to grow. It doesn't even belong where it grows, if you follow me. If one were to plant the seeds in a suitable environment, it would take only as long as one cycle to maturity to establish a sustainable plantation. I believe there are already some being grown this way in Brazil. Wild harvesting could be abandoned. Spruce is a short lived tree relatively,- less than 500 yrs. It would be easy to grow these in a plantation (like Christmas tree farms in Pennsylvania, etc.) Some American furniture companies have invested in their own forests and limit harvesting. It could easily be done by musical instrument makers.

How on earth are you doing this? I wish I knew your secret. How do you avoid plastic and traveling, just to start with?

I just say good-bye one thing at a time. I still use gas and plastic just seems to come with everything, but these are things humans have only had just lately. My grandfather didn't have any of that in his younger days and people lived fine, maybe better in some ways. If I live long enough, I'll be living like he did in some ways, perhaps with some technology surviving in an economically available supply. It's not a matter of how you give it up, just when. What is definitely not sustainable is the current consumption of energy nor most of the products and materials that cheap energy makes available. We didn't become oil dependent over night and we won't become oil independent over night either.

 

[D McCartney]

I suppose it depends what you mean by "stuffy" and "classical music" - I could give you several conflicting definitions!!

I was more refering to people I know with the attitude 'if it isn't classical, then it shouldn't be called music'

But generally I see it as the music that has stood the test of time and is basically repertoire-driven

Ah, but I do so much like Howard Shore.

Well - they might say they are "artists" rather than entertainers.... ?

Many make that claim. These days, the definitions of art and entertainment are rather blurred. And doesn't the artist always covet more colors for his palette?

Well - I still expect that the best violinists won't turn down the chance to play that Stradivarius...?

LOL, and 400 years from now, how will they react to the CF? ??

Is that a good thing or a bad thing...?

I'm not sure!

I remember ELO!!!

Ahem, and I still remember Iseo Tomita.
Was it classical when Beethoven was a boy? Didn't he shake things up a bit?

 

[Silversorcerer]

Was it classical when Beethoven was a boy? Didn't he shake things up a bit?

Actually, yes it was Classical when Beethoven was a boy. As an adult, he ushered in the Romantic era. We have very little of Beethoven's repertoire since in his younger days his primary claim to fame was not the symphonies yet to be written, but his live improvisations upon the then newly invented clavichord, or piano-forte. Since the only forerunners to the piano were the harpsichord and the organ;- two distinctly different sounding instruments;- the piano was not regarded like a CF harpsichord. It was not a substitute but something new in terms of sound. And at the time of his death, he would not have been considered a performer for the wealthy only;- over 20,000 people attended his funeral. He was wildly popular with the masses. Something like Elvis. All of Europe went into mourning.

But I think Bruce's point is better explained in that the music that Beethoven left behind was an extension of a formal musical language that had been developing over time. Much of the pop music we get today doesn't even pass as reasonably developed folk music and the people who perform it aren't shaking up the formal musical dialogue as much as they are just shaking. There are some musicians and composers putting out great contemporary music. It is just easily lost in the sea of fluff. There was a time when you had to be a Beethoven to be recognized even by the masses. In my lifetime there have been a few Beethovens. For me, Mingus is a Beethoven. But few people know who Charles Mingus was. More people know of Beethoven. In ten years 50 cents will still be a half a dollar and Beethoven will still be a household name.

As for the dumbing down of the Orchestra's performances, that is already happening in Atlanta. The Savannah Symphony is no more, quite sadly. I truly hope this is a passing phase, but it is harder and harder for truly rich music to find an audience.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes - I suppose what I was thinking was that I felt really privileged to see Dave Holland play (with the Birmingham Contemporary Music Ensemble) a piece written for him by Marc Anthony Turnage, which was a great synthesis of Jazz, Contemporary Classical etc.

Yet now - while I can buy vast amounts of pseudo-classical fluff with pictures of attractive young women on the cover - I can't buy a recording of that piece and many other genuinely interesting works of musical art....

 

[D McCartney]

Ah, you are talking about the music overall, I was talking about the instrument. I see the CF both as a possible tool for the artist and as a gimmick for the profiteer.
Yes, stand alone classical seems to be in a waning cycle. But rest assured, it will wax again, it has a very strong and rich foundation.
My point was that perhaps one of those children that is attracted to to brightly colored fiddle will someday be the genius that brings the music itself back to the forefront.
In the meantime, it seems to have found a place providing texture to movies. Many movie scores can stand on their own quite well. I would love to see orchestras doing Basil Poledouris works. Aren't those works "an extension of a formal musical language that had been developing over time?" And Fellowship of the Ring did sell quite a few copies of the soundtrack. Or are they "pseudo-classical fluff?"
Another aspect is that there are just so many choices available today. In Beethovens day, you went to the concet or you didn't hear the music. Borders has a pretty extensive classical section, and not all of it is fluff.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

And Fellowship of the Ring did sell quite a few copies of the soundtrack. Or are they "pseudo-classical fluff?"
.

Well I like the films and have all the extended DVDs - the music is very atmospheric, no doubt well-written and crafted to fit the film ....but it aint Beethoven!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Another aspect is that there are just so many choices available today. In Beethovens day, you went to the concet or you didn't hear the music.

But that's exactly my point - so there are many more CDs available to me, but not of Dave Holland playing contemporary classical music...

Maybe his beard was off-putting for some audiences or maybe his DB wasn't bright and shiny enough.....?

 

[Silversorcerer]

"We will be geared to the average, not the exceptional." - a paraphrase from Ian Anderson, who in general, was not (geared to the average).

Part of the beauty of a live performance is that you can't hear it again. I was at one of those 4 day festivals where bringing recorded music would have been worse than bringing hamburger to a vegetarian pot luck dinner.

On the other hand, the inexpensive availability of good recording equipment has made it easier to record any performance. Not that what we end up finding are the better ones. My point is that if Dave Holland wanted to distribute a recording of his performances he would not need the expensive backing of the recording industries to make that available. All he would need is less than $1000 worth of recording gear and a web site. When I can find Paul Rodgers avant garde improv performances on CD and get them sent across the big pond or when I can get Mark Deutsch playing the Bazantar, or just about any self-promoting folk singer on CD, it is not the "system" that makes Dave Holland unavailable, it is Dave Holland.

Don't expect to pick them up at Walmart: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]