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Double Bass CGDA Tuning, cellist advantage?
- Thread starter Daniiel89
- Start date
You're probably better off taking the time to learn standard tuning. Bass plays a different role from the cello in most styles of music and it's descended from a different family of instruments. The double bass is tuned in perfect fourths for a reason and I imagine it would be quite a headache to learn in fifths, not to mention sounding bad due to the unusual level of tension in the strings.
I play cello and bass. My first instrument was cello, then I got an electric bass and now play double bass. Switching to 4ths tuning was really a snap. In fact, I am presently playing both, because I resurrected my cello to play along with my kids as they practice for their music lessons.
When I made the switch, I just sat down with my bass and worked through the Dotzauer. The Simandl would probably be preferable, but I didn't know about it.
Fifths tuned bass is a rarity, AFAIK. The reach would be horrible. Bass is typically played in the lower positions with a three finger technique -- 1, 2, and 4.
I advise starting with a conventionally tuned bass, and getting a teacher to show you the ropes. I think you will find the tuning is the least of your worries. And I hope you enjoy playing bass!
When I made the switch, I just sat down with my bass and worked through the Dotzauer. The Simandl would probably be preferable, but I didn't know about it.
Fifths tuned bass is a rarity, AFAIK. The reach would be horrible. Bass is typically played in the lower positions with a three finger technique -- 1, 2, and 4.
I advise starting with a conventionally tuned bass, and getting a teacher to show you the ropes. I think you will find the tuning is the least of your worries. And I hope you enjoy playing bass!
Unless you have a bass teacher who also uses this method or has studied with someone who has(particularly Joel Quarrington), I would recommend against it. To play thirds you have to use your thumb.
I've read on Silvio Dalla Torre's website that fifths tuning actually sounds better than standard orchestral fourths tuning. The tension overall should actually be lower because your lowest note is a low C and not a low E.
You can read more about the different tuning here:
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My bass is currently tuned DADG using standard orchestral tuning strings. I like the low D because it totally kicks ass.
Seriously, both the basses that I've tuned the E down to a D became much more resonant - the low end totally opened up. When they were tuned to an E, they sounded a bit choked. However, while the low D is easy to learn, it's a bit tricky in some situations. Such as when you want to go from a G or A-flat on the low D string to a B-flat on the A string. It's quite a leap.
The low D string to A string is a fifth. Imagine making a similar leap to the one I mentioned above on all four strings. Octaves are no longer playable within the same position: you're going to have to make quite a leap every time you play an octave, making repeating octaves that you might find in some orchestral repertoire a real nightmare.
A bassist I know in the Fort Worth Symphony plays tuned in 5ths. I did some work on his bass and watched him "noodle" on it for a while in my shop. He says that it's easier to match octave doubling with the cellos. It makes perfect sense logically, but this technique is quite advanced even for a seasoned player. I'm not aware of any standard bass method books that will have a fingering system a beginner could learn with this tuning. I've been raised on the good ole Simandl method and this technique blew my mind..
A cellist might find the open strings familiar, but that's the extent of it.
A cellist might find the open strings familiar, but that's the extent of it.
If the bass has a C-extension, you can just open the extension for the same effect. I often keep my C extension open or close the gate on D.My bass is currently tuned DADG using standard orchestral tuning strings. I like the low D because it totally kicks ass.
Raphael McNabney (Solo Bass with Les Violons du Roy) was a cellist, and then Joel Quarrington suggested that he try the bass tuned in fifths. The majority of Joel's students today are cellists converted to the bass in fifths. I strongly recommend you try the bass in fifths. It CAN sound spectacular with the right stringing.
The bass in fifths isn't just about reaching a low C. It's about making the entire instrument more resonant (which it does for sure).
unlike 4ths. haha jk jk
lol. Well, there's so much you can do. Have you ever tuned a cello in fourths? It sounds terrible and very "closed". The part about fifths that matters is getting that "open" and resonant sound...Then again...All of that doesn't matter unless you've mastered the pivot and four finger technique. You can tune your bass in tenth's if you want...You've still got to be able to play it. The only reason I think people still play the bass in fourths is because it's easier. Acoustically to fifths there's no comparison.
I wasn't talking about simply reaching the low notes. The point is that, with the extension open to a C, you have a fifth (C and high G), and with the extension open to a D, you have an octave (D) and fifth (A). I don't deny that fifths tuning can open up a bass, because the extension does just that. In addition, I find that the C or D on the extension sounds better than a low C string. Actually extensions on other strings would be nice too. E.g., [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Perhaps, the resonance with the extension isn't as much as with an all-fifths tuning, but the effect of an extension is certainly substantial and one avoids the fingering issues and the lack of teachers/instructional materials.
Don't you have fifths anyway with 4ths tuning. G-D, D-A and A-E Those strings should still vibrate sympathetically if that seems important. I can't imagine anyone being able to hear an open string vibrating sympathetically in the middle of an orchestra anyway, and it would only work with open strings, right?
I think I'd rather be able to play thirds reasonably than some undetectable "opening of the bass"
I think I'd rather be able to play thirds reasonably than some undetectable "opening of the bass"
As a bassist who was tuned in 5ths for a while and who has also played cello, I would say yes to the first question and no to the second.
The cello is much more playable in 5ths than the bass is, relatively speaking. For me though, that wouldn't be a good reason to avoid trying it for a while and seeing how I felt about it.
I agree with you in regards to an extension sounding better than a bass in fifth's Low C. It's pure physics. An extension extends the string length from 41-42" to around 50". In order to get a Low C or B to speak properly with TRUE fundamental a string length of around 48-50" is ideal. In order to get a normal bass with a normal string length (42" aprox) to get a low C to speak nicely you're going to have to use a very very heavy gauge and high tension string. Most likely a Spirocore Stark.
Once again...it's pure physics. Why does a bass of 42" sound better than a 1/2 size bass of 38"....For one, it's the vibrating string length.
In regards to the other post...Strings will sympathetically vibrate UPWARDS...Ie. If you play an open G, the D below it won't vibrate. But if you play an open G (in fifths), the D above it will vibrate. You'd be surprised to see how much resonance and an increase in sound you get from playing in fifths. Once again all of this is meaningless unless you can play the instrument once tuned this way!
I wouldn't reccomend it. For bass, there is an advantage to tuning in 4th because since this tuning would require less shifts (in most situations). If you think of playing a one octave major scale, you can probably play most scales in one hand position using the Smandle method without shifting. This would be different if tuned if 5ths. Playing in 5ths would require more shifting, which makes bass playing that much more difficult (its difficult enough to play in 4ths!) it wouldnt make sense to make it harder for yourself by having to shift more. Cellists can pull off this 5ths tuning more more easily, as it is a less cumbersome instrument and shifting isnt as big of a deal on a cello as it is on a bass.
Hope this makes sense. I would reccomend learning bass in 4ths, even if it means adjusting to learn the new pattrens, positions, etc. In almost any situation, there would be more of an advangtage to playing in 4ths
Hope this makes sense. I would reccomend learning bass in 4ths, even if it means adjusting to learn the new pattrens, positions, etc. In almost any situation, there would be more of an advangtage to playing in 4ths
if you have the means and the determination to play in fifths, i would say go for it. the only thing holding me back is the lack of teachers that are proficient in fifths. i also wonder if the professors at a college audition would ever take a student who tuned in fifths if they have always tuned in fourths, as well as the audition committee in a professional audition. Would it be considered to much of a "taboo" for them to accept the auditionee? I wouldnt know. But what i do know is that Drop D tuning opened up my bass substantially while i was able to play around with it. I could only imagine what tuning all 4 strings in fifths would do....... maybe one day
