Chasing Tone, Bassists vs Guitarists

[oldcatfish]

I have a more mixed view on it than most, personally. I think it's more like a 50/50 contribution than just totally me and the bass doesn't matter; that's just not true for me. I do find that I do sound markedly different depending on the gear, especially the bass. For example, I'm almost unrecognizable in terms of tone on my L2000 fretted bass over against my Jaco currently fitted with flats. I can force a similar tone with technique, but in the normal case where I'm not breaking my arms trying to force a particular sound or style, and playing each bass according to what it kind of "naturally" is, I really don't sound the same.

Eg. for things where I like a machine-like, hyper-thick/fat, synthetic kind of tone, the L2000 is the go to bass. But if I need something for funk, for example, the Tony Franklin will "make me sound different" in a more favorable way for that.

OTOH, there are habits (ruts?) in my playing style and preferences where I do kind of "sound like me" regardless of the bass or other equipment. So to that extent, "it's the player not the bass" applies. My general suckage and lack of talent and musicianship is apparent on any instrument and it comes through every song like a cat dying regardless of bass or electronics.

So I tend to think that, yes, there is some "invariance" in what you sound like that's just a property of you and your playing that will always be there and make your playing distinctive. But I'm not down with "the gear doesn't matter, only the player". That's just demonstrably false - it does matter and it matters quite a bit. That's why we don't all play the same gear, or only the cheapest gear or only the most expensive gear. We play the stuff that contributes what we like to our sound and playing....

—I am with the 50% camp…sometimes. I didn’t used to think that it made much difference, until a certain incident.

I used to play in a blues/rock band with a great guitar player that played a Fender strat. He was phenomenal sounding. Then he got a Les Paul for his birthday, so he started using it for every gig. His tone definitely changed, but not for the better. The Les Paul just wasn’t working for him, but he loved it. I wasn’t about to tell him what gear to play…but our very opinionated drummer sure did. The guitar player got into a heated argument with him and ended up quitting the band.

On the other hand, I was in a guitar store once when a guy was trying out some different guitars into a Crate practice amp. The tone was absolutely awesome. No matter which one he played, it all sounded like him…which was fantastic. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t been there. He played jazz, some classic rock, and some speed metal songs. The tone was ideal for each genre.

So, it just depends. Some gear has a really baked in, tone that really colors a person’s sound. Other gear is a little more transparent and let’s individual differences shine through better. This goes for pickups, pedals, amps, and some instruments.



L

 

[micguy]

I think we have to be very careful about saying things like guitarists are more into their gear than we are. When it comes to strings, we're way more obsessed than guitarists. I'm not sure how many guitarists even know if they're using round or flatwounds, or if they really care.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

This is such a weird issue, that it's hard to put it into a single thought. My take on the whole thing is: Tone comes from the gear. You will always play like you. The sound that is generated (tone) is done by the hardware. The music is made by you.
My example is Two players in a room, Each plays the same rig in that room. The tone generated by the hardware is the same. The music sounds different. Even if the music is the same piece, it will be played differently. The techniques used will also alter the sounds generated, but, I don't believe it will as much as the hardware.

My son, also a professional bassist, have often times played the same gear, as well as recording the same song with the same gear plucked at the same spot, the tone is different. Maybe his fingers are more tender, and mine a little less padded from the years of playing… weird.

 

[g-dude]

With guitar, effects are more noticeable. Not as much with the bass.

That being said, sloppy playing is also more noticeable on the guitar than the bass. Which effects can help hide.

 

[ThingsAbove]

Computerized pedal boards over the past 20 years seem to really have revolutionized what guitars are capable of doing. I still go to most gigs with just my bass and a good DI.

I think as bassists we get a lot more variation out of our hands and where we play than our guitarist brethren do. They really do need a wide range of effects to cop the sounds that are necessary for different styles of music. Beyond flats versus rounds I don't think we need anywhere near that much variability. So I'm happy to be a bassist.

 

[Wasnex]

The gear didn't matter; I always heard my core tone which came from me and my playing style.

If this is actually true, it frees you up to buy the cheapest and crappiest rig that meets your minimum SPL requirements.

I do agree with the statement that tone is in the fingers, but IMHO the statement should not be interpreted literally. I agree that you will tend to always sound like yourself, but that does not mean you will sound exactly the same regardless of which bass, amp, and cab you are using. In fact your tone can vary significantly as you change gear.

My time as a professional musician was spent in military bands. When I went to a new assignment I always went through the gear that was on the shelf and chose the pieces that best met my needs. At my second assignment I checked out a Yamaha TRB6P, and then kept that bass for the rest of my career. I would not say it produced my ideal tone and feel. IMHO the overall tone is too mid-scooped and the lows tend to be a bit looser and woolier than I like. It was the only 6-string on the shelf, it was practically new, and I have received a lot of positive comments from audience members about how great it sounds.

In order to have a matching instrument for home practice and private gigs, I bought myself a used TRB6P which remains my #1 bass to this day. I have played this model of bass since about 1995, so I don't see any reason to change basses at this point, although I do have a small collection of 4-strings, 5-strings, and an ABG.

Most of the other gear I used over more than two decades was taken off the shelf. But there were many amps and cabs that I thought sounded awful. I chose the items that I liked. I did ask for the military to purchase a few items for my needs; here are some examples: 1. GK 700RB/112 combo amp. I used this as a rehearsal amp and also for local jazz trio gigs. It matched my personal GK 700RB/112 that I used for civilian gigs. 2. I also asked for a NS Design EU6 electric upright, which I carried with me until retirement. 3. Ashley MX508 rack mixer. This was the core of my last touring rig. I put it in a 16-space rolling rack with a rack drawer, tuner, lighted Furman power conditioner, and QSC power amp. I used Shure A95U line matching transformers to plug into the mix inputs, as all 1/4" inputs were line level.


The last cabs I used were an Eden D210XLT and D410XLT...I primarily used only the 210. I inherited these from another bass player along with a WT800. To be honest I was never super happy with the sound of the WT800, and when it croaked I asked for the Ashley rack mixer.

 

[Mechanical]

This is such a weird issue, that it's hard to put it into a single thought. My take on the whole thing is: Tone comes from the gear. You will always play like you. The sound that is generated (tone) is done by the hardware. The music is made by you.
My example is Two players in a room, Each plays the same rig in that room. The tone generated by the hardware is the same. The music sounds different. Even if the music is the same piece, it will be played differently. The techniques used will also alter the sounds generated, but, I don't believe it will as much as the hardware.

Have you heard of the Omnific?

 

[Tubehed]

I think we have to be very careful about saying things like guitarists are more into their gear than we are. When it comes to strings, we're way more obsessed than guitarists. I'm not sure how many guitarists even know if they're using round or flatwounds, or if they really care.

I'm a guitarist too and know more guitar players than bassists. IME, some people (guitar players, bass players, drummers, etc.) are gear heads (like me) and others are pretty oblivious about their equipment and tone. There are people in between, too. Probably the healthiest ones . They are neither clueless or obsessive. In other words, it comes down to the individual person, regardless of their instrument of choice, and how much or little they care about equipment and tone.

 

[madasahatter]

If this is actually true, it frees you up to buy the cheapest and crappiest rig that meets your minimum SPL requirements.

It's kinda funny that you put it that way because for at least 15 years that is exactly how you could describe my rig.
My bass set up was a Hondo P bass, Behringer 4500 head and Hartke 4.5XL cab.
My guitar rig was a '95 Iceman, Crate Blue Voodoo with matching 4x10 cab. Except for a noise gate I didn't (and still don't) use pedals.
I wouldn't necessarily call those rigs bottom of the barrel, but they're certainly not high class either. I did get scoffed at by gear snobs but no one ever complained about my tone once I started playing.
I also build guitars & basses so over the years I've ended up with a number of of them, all different. They range from using cheap no name parts & pickups to name brand boutique stuff. Within the last 4 years or so I went ahead and bought what would be considered higher level amps. I got new amps/cabs for 2 reasons, my old gear went through a flood and I wasn't sure if it could be repaired and to treat myself to something "nicer"
Bass - Mesa Titan V12 & GK neo 4x12
Guitar - Engl Steve Morse & matching 4x12 cab
My old setups were able to be repaired so I could do a direct comparison to my new stuff. Having built the numerous guitars and basses of varying quality I could mix and match. I'm not going to say everything sounded the exact same where you couldn't tell A from B, but my core tone was in everything. For guitar I like my mids so my EQ was always more mid focused, just had to find the sweet spot with what I was playing. I always heard the same dynamics in my playing and same pick attack. I have a lighter fretting hand so I could hear the difference between my normal fretting and if I purposely slammed my finger on the fretboard. For bass it was the same thing. I'd find the sweet spot on the EQ, but the tone I heard was from my playing. I would argue that this is what tone is versus the sound the amp makes. Playing unplugged or on an acoustic it becomes even more apparent. So yes, in this aspect as long as there is nothing functionally wrong with anything I can use the cheapest gear and still achieve my core tone.
I think my view comes from how I define tone. To me tone comes from the playing, not from the sounds coming out the amp. This goes along with my statement that the musician makes the gear, not the other way around.

 

[juggahnaught]

OP is more or less correct on this one. Playing ability is paramount, and "tone" does indeed come from the fingers. This is true for both bass and guitar.

However, the signal chain for electric guitar is much more important to the overall sound in most cases. As an example, it's common for bassists to simply run a DI to a soundboard, and that works fine for what we do. (It may not be the ideal for some. But running a dry DI tone straight to a mixer will serve the basic needs for bass guitar.) This doesn't work for electric guitar for various reasons. The signal chain defines the overall final sound, and while a signal chain can be used electric bass, it's more or less required for electric guitar.

In a sense, electric guitar signal processing is similar to a synth. The base waveforms aren't really usable in the majority of cases (or, at least, the base signal is not what people generally want) and so they run through a series of transforms to get a final sound.

Bass can be the same way, but it's not a requirement for us like it is for electric guitar. A dry bass signal can be usable in a way that a dry signal from a guitar simply isn't, and that's why guitarists spend a lot on their signal chain. (It's also worth noting that the guitar signal chain does have a greater effect on playing technique than the equivalent for bass, mostly due to high-gain effects and other similar structures.)

In conclusion - it is indeed different for guitars. The best signal chain won't help a poopy player, whether they're a bassist or a guitarist, but it'll definitely have more of an effect on the guitarist's overall sound.

 

[Killing Floor]

A couple things:

1) Tone comes from pedals. All of it. Doesn’t even matter what kind of pedal.

2) If Eric Johnson plays my Strat it will sound great. If I play Eric Johnson’s Strat it will sound like a box of springs falling down the stairs.

 

[Wasnex]

This goes along with my statement that the musician makes the gear, not the other way around.

As long as you understand this is a personal truth instead of a universal truth, I see no reason to argue. But if you are saying everybody can and should be exactly like you, we have a problem. We are all different and IMHO those differences should be respected and honored.

In particular I tend to be mesmerized in rather small nuances in sound, and I love everything to be really clear and articulate. Obviously this causes some degree of frustration, because real world acoustics make it essentially impossible to get the type of bass sound I want live. But I have accepted that and learned a few tricks over the years that allow me to get close enough, providing the gear is actually capable of delivering what I need and want.

So gear matters to some degree to me. I can play with pretty much any gear, but my enjoyment is enhanced if the bass, amp, and cab have the right mix of qualities.

Here's an example: Millions of people love the way an Ampeg SVT and 810 sounds; so it is obviously an awesome rig. But I personally find it rather unpleasant, if not difficult, to play through an 810. Yes I can do it, and I still sound like myself, but I would prefer a cab with better dispersion and extended highs and lows. To be more succinct, I tend to prefer a rig that approaches full-range, flat-response. If I am playing through gear that I like, I tend to play better. So the gear does enhance my experience and performance.

So my personal truth is gear does matter, but it's not all about the gear. Rather, my technique and musical ideas are also extremely significant. So IMHO the sound emerges from an interaction of my technique and musical ideas, and the gear I use. If any part of the equation is changed, the sound will be changed. The resultant change may be subtle or it may be rather extreme. Lot's of possibilities.

 

[packhowitzer]

I chased tone for quite a while. It was an expensive effort on my part - I hope the rest of you have been able to get the results you wanted more economically than me. But I know have the sound in my head pretty much coming out of my speakers. The things that have made the most difference though have been:

Fresh strings (when i'm using rounds any way)
Setting my EQ properly (more or less at noon with small tweaks to taste or to accommodate the room)
Practice

Those things have done more for me than preamps and pedal chains and this amp or that amp or new pickups or that fancy bridge or any number of other things. Don't get me wrong. I still want the amp I want. I play a pretty specific bass. And I have a huge appreciation for well-made components of all kinds - bass parts, signal chain goodies, etc. But honestly, the three things I listed above did more for me than the rest. and they were a lot less money and time spent banging my head against the wall. that's just my .02 though. Go chase down your tone however you see fit. I just wanted to offer another perspective.

 

[40Hz]

I think it’s just that the nuances in tone (timbre) are more audible and obvious at higher frequencies. And guitar plays a more noticeable role in music than bass often does. So I’d suggest that gear might well be a far more significant factor for guitar than it is for bass. And tone chasing via gear may actually be more viable for guitar as well.

I don’t think it’s so much guitarists are fooling themselves as it is they’re playing a different instrument than we bassists are. And our approach to music, along with our goals, techniques, and gear requirements are simply going to be different than theirs because of that. So I’m not surprised the OP got some pushback on the other site.

Bottom line: Bass and guitar are two different instruments. As a bass player, I don’t usually appreciate being told what my job is or how to play my instrument. Especially when it’s coming from someone who isn’t a fellow bass player. So I think it’s only fair for me to extend a reciprocal courtesy to guitarists. Because I doubt they appreciate a non-guitarist telling them how to do their job or play their instrument either.

 

[coy garcia]

I think bass players are as obsessed with tone as any guitar player. I chased tone for 30 yrs...I finally found it in my playing style then one day I discovered the perfect bass to complement said style...amp , speaker pedals don't really matter in my case.. It was a Bruce Johnson bass for me. I am no longer searching. Sure many of you know who he is...and his builds

 

[boldaslove1977]

I gig on both guitar and bass. I tend to agree with the OP. Gear absolutely drives my playing way on guitar. I feel like the gear changes the way I play, especially on a wide-ranging bar band gig where you have to cover a ton of tones. But on bass... I feel like it's the opposite. I'm just tweaking the gear to adjust to my playing and tone.... minus the occasional over the top fuzz pedal or something like that.

I think it all matters... but your hands and brain matter most. The most telling thing to me is when you sit in for a song with someone else's rig. Or they sit in on yours. They never sound exactly the same as you. Ever.

What I find interesting... on guitar... I am often tweaking all night. Pedals. Amp. When you are trying different OD pedals, they interact with amps very differently. Some are more sensitive than others, etc. And sometimes if I'm not having a great night tonally I'll switch guitars and that's made a difference.

But on bass... I feel like I can usually lock in my sound for the night within the first 2-3 songs... and I'm good. Might not look at the amp again all night if things are working. That NEVER happens on a guitar gig.

 

[jdjk7]

I'm making this post here that stems from something I posted over on The Gear related Page that had a rather poor reception. Without boring everyone here with the full story these are basics... I wrote about how I came to fully realize that my personal sound came from me and not the gear. For the last 15+ years I used the same amp and guitar/bass. It was pleasing to my ear and worked within any situation so I just played. Events that destroyed my gear forced me to get replacements. I questioned and reevaluated the tone I'd had for all that time so I tried a bunch of new things. In the end I fully realized that I had it right to begin with. The gear didn't matter; I always heard my core tone which came from me and my playing style.

The one response that I got from my other post was along the lines of: The tone is in the fingers, the fingers you use to pull money out your wallet to buy new gear.

That response really put an exclamation point on what I've noticed about the way bassists and guitarists approach tone.
Bassists seem to approach it similar to my perspective. The core tone comes from the playing, the gear is just a little extra flavoring. The bass and amp used allows a more focused part of your playing stand out. But regardless of what gear is used you always hear your playing style & dynamics as the core tone.
Whereas guitarists seem to go the opposite. They seem to approach it as their tone is defined by which gear they are playing through. Playing style, dynamics, and technique automatically become better when better gear is used. It's all about the gear, the more expensive it is the better it is and playing comes second. Gear is always fun to discuss but on the guitar side it seems to come off more often as what I have is never good enough. If I had something new and expensive I'll get the sound I'm after and by default play better. Then rinse and repeat.

These are just my observations, thoughts, and opinions which may or not be way off base. What are your thoughts on the subject? Have you made similar observations to what I have or have you noticed the complete opposite?

I think this is a pretty narrow way to look at it. Some of the most meticulous gear-chasers I know are bass players, myself included. I simply think it's a matter of the "gear" market of bass being relatively young and inexperienced vs guitar. Bass pedals are common now, but they didn't used to be. It didn't used to be that a bass player had a lot of push to try different basses, different amps, or try effects unless they were fairly enterprising or forward. Nowadays, there is ample opportunity for bassists to be gear whores. I think it's nice to think about the idea that we as bass players have the virtuous value of prioritizing playing over gear, but I simply don't think it's more true necessarily than for guitar.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Probably…I don’t hear that AIC acoustic bass sound to be all that exceptional; I mean, I wouldn’t want it. The bassist for The Remains, a 60’s garage rock group, used one of those pointy Teiscos(albeit a 6-string), and he got a fat, typical for the times tone on this(once again, nothing I’d personally chase after, but it’s no worse than other stuff around that period), spotlighted at 1:29….

And that Dano isn’t too far off from the Longhorn that Jack Bruce used on Disraeli Gears, and after all, that has been heard a few billion times.

Wow, the bass tone that he has at about 1:28 is absolutely terrible! HE NEEDS BETTER GEAR!!

 

[pepj]

I think bass players are as obsessed with tone as any guitar player. I chased tone for 30 yrs...I finally found it in my playing style then one day I discovered the perfect bass to complement said style...amp , speaker pedals don't really matter in my case.. It was a Bruce Johnson bass for me. I am no longer searching. Sure many of you know who he is...and his builds

Of the bass players i know, a good few are concerned with tone but only in copying their favourite player. And I have to say, none of them are happy but dont know how to fix it.
Some even take a picture of their amp settings in case they lose what they have.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I'm making this post here that stems from something I posted over on The Gear related Page that had a rather poor reception. Without boring everyone here with the full story these are basics... I wrote about how I came to fully realize that my personal sound came from me and not the gear. For the last 15+ years I used the same amp and guitar/bass. It was pleasing to my ear and worked within any situation so I just played. Events that destroyed my gear forced me to get replacements. I questioned and reevaluated the tone I'd had for all that time so I tried a bunch of new things. In the end I fully realized that I had it right to begin with. The gear didn't matter; I always heard my core tone which came from me and my playing style.

The one response that I got from my other post was along the lines of: The tone is in the fingers, the fingers you use to pull money out your wallet to buy new gear.

That response really put an exclamation point on what I've noticed about the way bassists and guitarists approach tone.
Bassists seem to approach it similar to my perspective. The core tone comes from the playing, the gear is just a little extra flavoring. The bass and amp used allows a more focused part of your playing stand out. But regardless of what gear is used you always hear your playing style & dynamics as the core tone.
Whereas guitarists seem to go the opposite. They seem to approach it as their tone is defined by which gear they are playing through. Playing style, dynamics, and technique automatically become better when better gear is used. It's all about the gear, the more expensive it is the better it is and playing comes second. Gear is always fun to discuss but on the guitar side it seems to come off more often as what I have is never good enough. If I had something new and expensive I'll get the sound I'm after and by default play better. Then rinse and repeat.

These are just my observations, thoughts, and opinions which may or not be way off base. What are your thoughts on the subject? Have you made similar observations to what I have or have you noticed the complete opposite?

I agree with most folks that you'll sound like you on just about anything you use. However, I am of the firm opinion that amp and cabs makes a bigger difference in your sound than the bass once you have a decent one, and yes Squier basses are decent basses. I started playing bass in 1965, 56-years ago. It was a short scale green Japanese bass before Japan figured out how to make good ones. Finally got a Fender Bassman amp in 1966 so I could hear myself and found out how bad that bass sounded. Within a few months though, I was the proud owner of a 1965 Fender Jazz and was playing dances in a high school band. That Fender combination sounded good and looked good too.

I've had a lot of other amps over the years. When I went touring in the early 70's my Bassman couldn't cut it anymore and I traded it in on a $1,150 Standel amp. That was an amp I wish I still had was a piggy-back amp with a powered and ported bass reflex 215 cab. Was really loud and I could turn it half way up only if we were playing outside with not buildings to bounce the sound off of. After touring for 3-years everything went fine until early in 1976 when we moved from LA up to the Portland, Oregon area. House was burglarized and all my touring gear was stolen, including my '65 Jazz Bass. That was the last time I had a decent amp until 2008.

I did use a GK guitar amp along with two JBL 112 with full width horn PA speakers and that sounded pretty darn good. But I'd borrowed it from my son and had to give it back when his "DJ" season came back around. Scraped up a Yamaha 115 combo which was "Meh". Added a Sunn 212 cab to that and that was better than "Meh". Sound was just OK. Then got a GK backline 250 and a GK-115bpx cab and just could not even get a decent sound out of it. Had great expectations due to previous GK experience and had great disappointment instead. Added my Sunn 212 cab to it and that worked OK, but not what I really wanted.

Then in 2008 I bought an Eden Nemesis RS400 amp (400-watts rms into 4Ω. That was Eden's mid-range amp series and got it on sale. Suddenly I could hear things that I was playing that I never heard before. But, way too much power for my poor Sunn 212. Got an acoustic B410 cab and combined that with the GK115. And now, I had giggable gear that made me sound better simply because it was clean, clear, and articulate, and I could hear every little thing I was doing. So that was the first time since my touring gear was stolen, that I liked what I was hearing. I had clean clear and full sound and could gig anywhere with it.

Then I got my Big Eden amp (WT500/800) and I bought it directly from David Nordschow (alias David Eden). It was the amp he had on his test bench that he used to design Eden cabs. He had sold Eden in the early 2000's but didn't leave them until 2009. So he had left Eden a year before and started his new company DNA (David Nordschow Amplification). It's a dual powerblock amp putting out 400-watts rms per channel into 4Ω and it bridges at 800-watts into 8Ω. It has a noticeably warmer sound than my Nemesis amp because my Nemesis amp has a 100% FET front end and my WT500/800 has a hybrid preamp using a 12ax7 tube for warmth. The warmth is comparatively subtle difference but I really like that warmth.

I bought David's DNS-410 cab in 2015 and it arrived 2-days prior to my move to Washington state from Virginia. I'd wanted it for 5-years and finally got it. Handles 1400-watts rms with a max SPL of 137db. It's crazy loud while its being sparkling clear, clean, and articulate with a very tight and low bottom end. I ran my Eden amp into it bridged at 800 watts and I could play anywhere. Got told to turn down while playing a music festival. Had moved my master up to 10:30. Had to move it to just about 10 o'clock to satisfy them. Good news is "I don't need no stinking 810 cab!" In 2019 I got accepted into the Endorsing Artist group for DNA and bought my DNS-210 for small and medium venues. This 210 is basically half of the 410. It handles 700-watts rms with a max SPL of 134db, which my Eden amp can drive it to. Come to find out, it can handle all my indoor venues just fine so I save my 410 for outdoors and music festivals.

I can hear every little subtlety of my playing with those cabs and my 210 will handle anything a normal 410 would handle, while my 410 handles anything an 810 would handle. So I'm not hauling around as much or as heavy of gear. As I'm now in my 70's, I like that "less to haul around" bit a lot, especially since I never sounded so good. Recently got a DNA-800 amp which is of course 800-watts rms into 4Ω. I should be able to use it with either my DNS-210 or my DNS-410, and since both cabs are 8Ω cabs, I could play them both at once if I want. It will only put out 400-watts into either cab, but that amount of watts should drive the DNS-210 to 131db and the DNS-410 to 134db if I need to.

So I'm going to say that gear is important because it allows you and your audience to hear exactly what you are playing. You can't sound as good through the cheaper, not as good gear because you and your audience can't hear the subtleties of what you do. As you start getting gear that is clear and articulate, that lets you come through, and it makes a real difference in your playing. IMHO once you get a decent or OK bass, upgrading the amp and cabs until you get that clear, clean, articulate sound that allows your technique to be heard, is more important than upgrading the bass to a higher quality bass. Once you have the sound reproduction that you need, then you can think about upgrading your bass.

But I really do feel that you need to get to a level with your amps and cabs that you can hear everything you are playing. I can still sound good through less expensive gear as long as it is clean clear and articulate, but if it's missing one of those, then my gear is putting me at disadvantage.