Chasing Tone vs Creating Tone

[David McIntire]

Excellent posts! And that wonderful quote applies to more than just bass playing.

"More than JUST bass..." Ain that the truth, sir. I wish I could remember where I read it. Or, take cred fer myself. Ha! But it hit me like a ton of bricks! I repeat it often to students or peers, when they start 2nd guessing on approaches. And not just in the context of music, either.

 

[luciens]

Here's a question. A couple, actually...

For Luciens; You say you eq that bass so you can hear it. To compensate for your hearing loss. I get it, totally. It's exactly what I do on my gigs, because all the surrounding din of noise on a stage in a club gets in my ears' way of hearing me quickly and well. So, it's a kind of hearing deficiency. So, a question might be, do you think Jaco set out to create his tone that we hear an love, or, was it a result of HIS hearing deficiency, and he made his tone hearable in his way, while you do it your way. And I do it mine. I bet, in a gig context, your tone would not only be great, but also very apparent in a mix. And, totally unique to you. That's a good thing!!

And, two. We all talk bout carrying our tone with us, unable to avoid it. So, are there things you, as a player do, to change the response or your tone that work? Effects, eq settings, certain strings, that actually affect the response you get from your basses and gear. For me? It's overdrive. My technique, my basses, my gear, are just too clear. I feel my mistakes are heard over my successes. Drive blurrs my top end a bit. Not only changing my HiFi rigs and basses top end, blurring it a bit, so I don't hear my mistakes quite as obviously, and, changes my modern, HiFi amps to something a little more LoFi and vintage, something I hear in many of my heroes' tones.

As for the first question about how Jaco arrived at his tone, strange but true - he wasn't the first to come up with a tone somewhat like that to suit his playing style. Bunny Brunel had had a similar idea back in the 70's when he was starting to become well known; he was forcing a tone not too far off from Jaco's out of a P bass, I think it was, when he was playing with Chick Corea and etc. He was already working on the idea of a heavy low mid sound with a Staccato, heavy attack giving a much cleaner sounding for fast jazz passages, kind of simultaneously with Jaco. And there are others too. Jeff Berlin for example, came up with his tone independently to my knowledge.

Jaco and BB don't sound the same, but there are distinct similarities. And both happen to be most well known as fretless players. So to try to answer your question, it's possible that their tone is deliberate, and driven by the particular style of playing. The jazzy TuMiniNotes kind of style. They both have their own takes on it, but the similarities are easy to see and it's probably driven by the music itself. I don't know what role their hearing plays in it, so can't really make a guess there.

As for your second question, due to lack of talent, no ability and just overall ignorance of my instrument, I do use probably excessive electronics to help out my tone and playing. Uneven volume and tone on my notes is the main problem I have with my playing and always have. Switching to fretless and just years and years of deliberate practice has helped a little bit, but I still compensate with compression even with a really good even-noted bass (like my erstwhile Carvins). I almost use compression at all times now, and I certainly always use at least a limiter with Jazz basses. Jazz's are known for having a hefty E string, even when it's plucked consistently with the others. And with my playing, I finally gave up and now just use a limiter to keep the E from blowing the neighbors out and sending them to the police station to complain.

I used to gig with a crappier amp that would "sag" on loud spikes and thus keep the volume of the loud hits down; that helped me out a bit too. My rickenbackers were better about that because they're much more even and in fact the E is usually a little quiet, but when I played a Jazz bass that E string was lethal if I didn't pluck it with a lot of care.

My fender jaco pastorius is the same way with a nuclear E string, so I use compression on it all the time too.

I do practice from time to time with no limiter/compressor, but even after decades of playing and practicing, it still sounds more awful than with compression....

L

 

[jamro217]

A thread about finding your voice. There is a feeling of freedom from resigning yourself to the fact that you sound like you. The trick is to be able to be a chameleon when needed yet still revert back to being you.

 

[Ryno1330]

So I posted my main player in another thread today and it got me thinking.

I've been playing bass for right around 26 years. Been through all kinds of rigs in that time. My first bass love was Matt Freeman of Rancid, so I chased that tone around for years and years, never really satisfied, always modding, trading, swapping strings and on and on forever.

Then, 10 years or so ago, I put together my first warmoth, a swamp ash 72 with a 90's MIM neck. Suddenly, it felt totally correct. Every part of the bass fit perfectly into what I wanted. I still didn't have that tone though!

So I kept going. I went through Tbirds, a couple Jazz basses, a schecter, a million different string brands, mods, flats, back to rounds, 4-5 different amp setups, pedals, all that stuff. The warmoth main player just kind of stuck around. Then about 4 years ago, I stopped changing the strings. I sold my last Jazz bass. I got down to a 115 combo amp and a simple boss overdrive.

Now, 10 years or so later, I found the tone! It's not Freeman's tone. It's mine. It took me 26 years of playing, 10 years of playing the same bass, and 4 years on the same strings to finally figure out that it's not the tone that's in my head that I'm reaching for, it's the tone that's in my hands that i cultivated over almost 3 decades.

Moral of the story is that if you're searching for a tone, it'll almost never be the new one. It'll be the old tone you've had forever that just keeps coming back. A new amp or bass or strings or whatever might not be the fix-it might be just sticking to the gear that feels the best over a looooong period of time.

As always, ymmv. Just thought I'd ramble.

Great insight. I am admittedly a big tone chaser but it's something I enjoyed doing with my spare time and disposable income as a hobby. The problem is that it turns into a never ending rabbit hole and it leads you back to exactly what you discovered. It also has stunted my improvement as a musician some because my playing and practicing isn't nearly as productive when you're tweaking.

And not to defend tone chasing as a whole but doing it did allow me to find the equipment that really speaks to me and allows me to express myself (which wasn't always what I would've expected starting out).

 

[Rolling Thunder]

My biggest trap is getting caught up in pedal graphics....we all have done this, I think

 

[DrThumpenstein]

my playing and practicing isn't nearly as productive when you're tweaking.

Yep. That's my experience too. Mostly.

I think for me, getting an amp that was capable of producing the sound I wanted has allowed me to improve my skills by focusing on technique. My first combo was a bit of a mudbucket. It wasn't capable of a sharp or articulate attack, and it was frustrating to try to work on that aspect of my playing.

My next amp was plenty articulate, but didn't have the warm, tubey sound I really wanted. It didn't interfere with development of my skills at all, but still not satisfactory tone.

I must be a bit of a Goldilocks, because the third choice was just right! (WD-800 = )

Now, I'm still tweaking, but it's mostly to match the covers my band plays. It's a pleasure rather than a chore, which is what it was trying to get a sound that just wasn't there.

 

[sotua]

Yep. Spend years chasing Geddy Lee's tone. 20+ years later it turns out my favorite recording tone is my Jazz, strung with flats, played with a pic, through a bunch of subtle distorion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[sikamikanico]

I guess I'm in the "creating your tone" camp, but part of it is finding an instrument (or a few) that allows you to get the tones you want and need. If the instrument limits you, then it doesn't serve you well.

I also found it important to not be too particular/picky. To nail a very particular sound (such as sound of another player), you have to pick your gear accordingly. But that same gear will then limit you in getting other sounds.

For example, if you want to nail the Jaco sound, you probably need a fretless Jazz with rounds, and likely some other gear (Acoustic amp etc). But good luck nailing the Jamerson sound on that bass! But on a good bass with two pickups and say, nickel rounds, and maybe some foam mutes to take on and off, you can get reasonably close to both sounds.

The key is not to nail the sounds, but to get into the ballpark (I guess "good enough" sound), and then work your fingers to go the rest of the way, focusing on having the most musically appropriate sound.

 

[rtslinger]

So I posted my main player in another thread today and it got me thinking.

I've been playing bass for right around 26 years. Been through all kinds of rigs in that time. My first bass love was Matt Freeman of Rancid, so I chased that tone around for years and years, never really satisfied, always modding, trading, swapping strings and on and on forever.

Then, 10 years or so ago, I put together my first warmoth, a swamp ash 72 with a 90's MIM neck. Suddenly, it felt totally correct. Every part of the bass fit perfectly into what I wanted. I still didn't have that tone though!

So I kept going. I went through Tbirds, a couple Jazz basses, a schecter, a million different string brands, mods, flats, back to rounds, 4-5 different amp setups, pedals, all that stuff. The warmoth main player just kind of stuck around. Then about 4 years ago, I stopped changing the strings. I sold my last Jazz bass. I got down to a 115 combo amp and a simple boss overdrive.

Now, 10 years or so later, I found the tone! It's not Freeman's tone. It's mine. It took me 26 years of playing, 10 years of playing the same bass, and 4 years on the same strings to finally figure out that it's not the tone that's in my head that I'm reaching for, it's the tone that's in my hands that i cultivated over almost 3 decades.

Moral of the story is that if you're searching for a tone, it'll almost never be the new one. It'll be the old tone you've had forever that just keeps coming back. A new amp or bass or strings or whatever might not be the fix-it might be just sticking to the gear that feels the best over a looooong period of time.

As always, ymmv. Just thought I'd ramble.

Welcome home it takes a long time looking in the mirror before you realize it has been you along staring back rts

 

[REV]

My "tone" is largely a product of the people I'm playing with and the venue. Sure I have a certain tone I go for when I'm playing at home but live is a different matter. If nobody's too loud for the venue and we're all listening to each other, my "tone" will be there. I really work on not being too loud even if others are, but if they are then nobody can really hear me to any great extent so my tone won't matter. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I try to tailor my sound to support the rest of the band and if we all work together it will be there.

 

[JRA]

Chasing Tone vs Creating Tone
who doesn't know this already?

"tone chasers" self-identify as lost.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

What REV said...
I try not to have a "tone." I have a role to fill in the context of the recording (or live situation) and I will adapt whatever needs to be adapted to get a sound that works within the framework given. The space left for a bass part in the sound is what I'm aiming to fill appropriately.
In recording, it's absolutely critical. Live performance is (in my opinion) mostly about personal monitoring needs versus the room.

 

[David McIntire]

What REV said...
I try not to have a "tone." I have a role to fill in the context of the recording (or live situation) and I will adapt whatever needs to be adapted to get a sound that works within the framework given. The space left for a bass part in the sound is what I'm aiming to fill appropriately.
In recording, it's absolutely critical. Live performance is (in my opinion) mostly about personal monitoring needs versus the room.

I get that. I incorporate dynamics, plucking techniques, eq settings both onboard and in my amps and PA systems... All kinds of things to fit my tone into the context of my surroundings. But, I see it a bit different, too.

An example might be... Did Tony Franklin show up to Firm auditions with a 66 fretted Jazz and try to play like JPJ? I bet many might have. But Tony got the gig. Maybe, because he chose to express himself with his vision of how a bass ought to be played.

When my epiphany hit me, I was struggling lots in getting sessions and gigs. I had a few, but nuttin like I have now. My epiphany helped me truly get my sound together, and like my heroes', I started expressing myself on recordings, sessions. Folk took a bit of notice. That encouraged me to take things a bit further. And eventually, like my heroes, my reputation for what I did with the opportunities presented, vs tryin to predict what others might want, got me calls to do what I do. The more I just played, without the chase, the better my results. And the more gigs I was called on.

My style and tone aren't applicable to every session or gig. But it is adaptable into many styles. And I don't want ALL the gigs. I want the ones I am suited for, thus can freely be me. I don't think they're calling Tony Franklin on a ton of New Country gigs. But if he got that call, I bet you he'd sound like himself. And own it! Then again, his work with Roy Harper and Gary Hoey might suggest he could fit his playin anywhere. I don't play reggae. Not my thing. I CAN get those tones, I could do those gigs. But I don't want to. If I get those calls? I recommend buddies who like that style and whose tones and approaches fit. They refer me when a more Rock approach is called for. And, I feel, no matter how many controls are twisted, a player's hands upon his bass guitar will still shine thru. Jamerson had no tricks. He had a bass and knew how to use it. I am not any of those guys I mention. But I still am me. And I don't think we have a choice in that. Then again, there's Nathan East. Maybe the greatest Chameleon ever...

 

[el murdoque]

I've chased quite a few tonal goals over the years, but I've never tried to sound exactly like someone else.
I have copied settings, bought pedals and tried techniques to understand what makes the sound of someone sound like it does - and whether or not this knowledge will be of use to me and my personal tone.
When I was young and ignorant, I wanted MY tone from the start. I did not want to sound exactly like someone else - I wanted a sound people would try to copy. Over the years, I must admit that the Idea of what I want and the concept of what really works in a mix in a venue have gotten a lot closer to each other.

 

[David McIntire]

I've chased quite a few tonal goals over the years, but I've never tried to sound exactly like someone else.
I have copied settings, bought pedals and tried techniques to understand what makes the sound of someone sound like it does - and whether or not this knowledge will be of use to me and my personal tone.
When I was young and ignorant, I wanted MY tone from the start. I did not want to sound exactly like someone else - I wanted a sound people would try to copy. Over the years, I must admit that the Idea of what I want and the concept of what really works in a mix in a venue have gotten a lot closer to each other.

See? I admire that. I spent too much time on a chase, and not enuff on my fingerboard. Heh.

 

[el murdoque]

See? I admire that. I spent too much time on a chase, and not enuff on my fingerboard. Heh.

That's just a mindset. I wanted to sound different so badly, I tried stupid things.
I guess, ultimately we all arrive at the same goal. Only I came from the other direction.

 

[chris_b]

Make the tone you've got work. Play great lines so no one even notices what you sound like.

 

[Ryno1330]

Yep. That's my experience too. Mostly.

I think for me, getting an amp that was capable of producing the sound I wanted has allowed me to improve my skills by focusing on technique. My first combo was a bit of a mudbucket. It wasn't capable of a sharp or articulate attack, and it was frustrating to try to work on that aspect of my playing.

My next amp was plenty articulate, but didn't have the warm, tubey sound I really wanted. It didn't interfere with development of my skills at all, but still not satisfactory tone.

I must be a bit of a Goldilocks, because the third choice was just right! (WD-800 = )

Now, I'm still tweaking, but it's mostly to match the covers my band plays. It's a pleasure rather than a chore, which is what it was trying to get a sound that just wasn't there.

Glad you found your amp! We sound like we have similar thoughts. I had a cheap older 1x15 Fender combo years ago that was muddy as heck. Then I got a Markbass 2x10 that was super clear and articulate but no warmth. I was between the WD800 and the amp I got, a Bergantino Forte HP. It's super clean, clear and articulate but has some warm drive options for when I want that. It feels good to be settled! I'm sure I would've loved the Mesa also it seems like that is one heck of an amp.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

isn't nearly as productive when you're tweaking.

This is like a fill-in-the-blank statement (even for those meth gators I heard about)

 

[Paul New]

Yes! I think that one issue is that as bassists, we hear very little feedback from the people we play with about our tone, and we get very self-conscious and start doubting.

Because they don't care. Most people can't tell an upright from a jazz without peeking.