Chasing Tone vs Creating Tone

[billiam5billion]

So I posted my main player in another thread today and it got me thinking.

I've been playing bass for right around 26 years. Been through all kinds of rigs in that time. My first bass love was Matt Freeman of Rancid, so I chased that tone around for years and years, never really satisfied, always modding, trading, swapping strings and on and on forever.

Then, 10 years or so ago, I put together my first warmoth, a swamp ash 72 with a 90's MIM neck. Suddenly, it felt totally correct. Every part of the bass fit perfectly into what I wanted. I still didn't have that tone though!

So I kept going. I went through Tbirds, a couple Jazz basses, a schecter, a million different string brands, mods, flats, back to rounds, 4-5 different amp setups, pedals, all that stuff. The warmoth main player just kind of stuck around. Then about 4 years ago, I stopped changing the strings. I sold my last Jazz bass. I got down to a 115 combo amp and a simple boss overdrive.

Now, 10 years or so later, I found the tone! It's not Freeman's tone. It's mine. It took me 26 years of playing, 10 years of playing the same bass, and 4 years on the same strings to finally figure out that it's not the tone that's in my head that I'm reaching for, it's the tone that's in my hands that i cultivated over almost 3 decades.

Moral of the story is that if you're searching for a tone, it'll almost never be the new one. It'll be the old tone you've had forever that just keeps coming back. A new amp or bass or strings or whatever might not be the fix-it might be just sticking to the gear that feels the best over a looooong period of time.

As always, ymmv. Just thought I'd ramble.

 

[David McIntire]

My experience is nearly identical, tho I'll admit to figuring out that it was My tone all along I was wanting. Well, actually? NOT wanting. I wanted to sound like all my heroes. I tried every bass and amp under a sun. Nothing changed. I always sounded close to others, but never could quite pull off the impression to meet my expectations.

Then, one day, I read or was told something that hit home for me. "You can never succeed at being another, you can never fail to be yourself." Suddenly, a lot of things I'd read in the words of my heroes and others made perfect sense. I never heard them say they were tryin to get another guy's sound. They were describing how they got their sound. Two different guys play the exact same song, neither sounded identical to the other. And they didn't seem to mind.

My issue was? I didn't want that to be true. I didn't like the way I sounded. I truly wanted to have a sound that incorporated many things I heard in others' tones, but I could not hear it in mine. Was a frustrating realization. I had to learn to hear what I did. To hear it as a positive. And, if I had no choice in how I sounded, I was going to learn to control what I sounded like very precisely.

I still struggle with this on a nearly daily basis. I gig a lot. The folk giving me compliments help me to hear what they hear. But with this break in my usual routine of gigging, idle time wears away my resolve a bit. I think too much. Listen too hard. My Jazz is NOT Geddy's or JPJ's. My fretless is NOT Tony Franklin's. Learning to appreciate my sound was maybe the most difficult lesson of my career. One that I think many of my heroes either learned very early, or, just didn't care. And that might be a secret to their success.

 

[billiam5billion]

My experience is nearly identical, tho I'll admit to figuring out that it was My tone all along I was wanting. Well, actually? NOT wanting. I wanted to sound like all my heroes. I tried every bass and amp under a sun. Nothing changed. I always sounded close to others, but never could quite pull off the impression to meet my expectations.

Then, one day, I read or was told something that hit home for me. "You can never succeed at being another, you can never fail to be yourself." Suddenly, a lot of things I'd read in the words of my heroes and others made perfect sense. I never heard them say they were tryin to get another guy's sound. They were describing how they got their sound. Two different guys play the exact same song, neither sounded identical to the other. And they didn't seem to mind.

My issue was? I didn't want that to be true. I didn't like the way I sounded. I truly wanted to have a sound that incorporated many things I heard in others' tones, but I could not hear it in mine. Was a frustrating realization. I had to learn to hear what I did. To hear it as a positive. And, if I had no choice in how I sounded, I was going to learn to control what I sounded like very precisely.

I still struggle with this on a nearly daily basis. I gig a lot. The folk giving me compliments help me to hear what they hear. But with this break in my usual routine of gigging, idle time wears away my resolve a bit. I think too much. Listen too hard. My Jazz is NOT Geddy's or JPJ's. My fretless is NOT Tony Franklin's. Learning to appreciate my sound was maybe the most difficult lesson of my career. One that I think many of my heroes either learned very early, or, just didn't care. And that might be a secret to their success.

Yes! I think that one issue is that as bassists, we hear very little feedback from the people we play with about our tone, and we get very self-conscious and start doubting.

 

[David McIntire]

Yup. Kind of a double edged sword, tho. In the "No news is good news" context. Heh. Folk that call me usually call me because they saw me, heard me. So, they just expect me. I'm not a guy that goes up to a leader and asks what he thot bout my performance or tone. I figger, if he has issue? He'll tell me. Then, after a period of time of working with a group of guys, it all gets taken for granted.

The audiences, tho, are different each night. Their comments are nice to hear. And can be mighty reassuring. Of course, other musicians sayin nice things can go a long way, too. Guys that come out to check you out.

Jaco, Geddy, all those cats, did not care one bit if I, specifically, liked their tone. Or, anyone specifically. They just loved what they did. But, they cared that SOMEone liked their sound, or tunes, or voice. I kinda developed a mantra I say to myself and others, on occasion. "I don't get to decide what is good. Or not good. I can only love what I do." I love what I do. Play bass. I'm blessed and fortunate if others think what I do is good. But if I never got a call to gig again, I would still play every day. And still sound just like me, dammit.

 

[Jeff Scott]

I create tones; I want to sound like me, thanks.

 

[JimmyM]

People chase tones at first, but then eventually you realize that you're going to sound like you no matter what you do.

 

[JW56789]

I completely believe that there's some sort of psychoacoustic 'fingerprint' embedded in each of us that results in the 'sounds like me'. For along time, I've found that if you give me most any bass and any amp, gimme about five minutes twiddling knobs, and it's . . . . . . going to sound like me. And I'm totally convinced that their is far more power in where and how you pluck the strings as far as tone goes, totally hand-related.

I'd be totally happy with a bass with a volume and tone, and a bass rig with gain, master gain, and 3-band EQ: I can do the rest, and . . . . . it will sound like me.

 

[Kro]

 

[David McIntire]

I completely believe that there's some sort of psychoacoustic 'fingerprint' embedded in each of us that results in the 'sounds like me'. For along time, I've found that if you give me most any bass and any amp, gimme about five minutes twiddling knobs, and it's . . . . . . going to sound like me. And I'm totally convinced that their is far more power in where and how you pluck the strings as far as tone goes, totally hand-related.

I'd be totally happy with a bass with a volume and tone, and a bass rig with gain, master gain, and 3-band EQ: I can do the rest, and . . . . . it will sound like me.

I feel exactly the same way. My rig is as simple as I can make it. And, it would seem, any amp I play thru I end up dialing me into. No funnier way to explain it than this...

I have quite a few rigs at my disposal. Like, 20. No joke. So, I keep a few at home to fool around with. Regardless of the fact I am aware I always sound like me, I still like to twiddle knobs and experiment/learn about eq. I just bought an old SWR SM-900 and was plugging it up thru a couple cabs, putting it thru its paces to see what it might need. I have a buddy who insists that gear is the source of his tone, and refuses to believe his very nice bass sounded the same with every preamp he installed in it. So he calls, loves SWR gear, and asks what I think of the 900. Well, after playin thru my Demeter, then Interstellar Overdrive rigs, and goin back and forth thru the 900 and those two, I tell him I'm bummed, because each rig sounds identical. Even with controls at neutral positions. He'd sold me the Interstellar, sayin it didn't sound the same as his Grand Prix, or his other rigs, which he preferred. I had to disagree. Not only does my buddy sound bout the same thru his rigs, but he won't acknowledge that. He stresses every gear decision, every nuance of everything between his hands and an audience's ears. He's always sounded great in everything, but he won't hear me when I mention that. Heh. We've been brothers for over 20 years, so we give each other a bit of crap on occasion. I plugged into these three rigs, and I'll be darned if the tone comin out of them is darn close to identical. If I tweak em to my stage settings, the resemblance is even MORE apparent. It is a bummer, but it's also hilarious, that I can't get away from my tone. It's had me use different terminology in describing my tone, too.

I don't want a "flat" tone. I can certainly appreciate a great sounding amp upon firing it up. But ALL amps, for me, sound great on firing it up. What I want is an ACCURATE Response. Accurate to me, to the instrument I've chosen, and somewhat toward the gig I'm on and the room I'm in. That accuracy, I don't describe as a "rig's inherent tone". The rig RESPONDS to MY tone. I'm looking at RESPONSES of rigs. How do they respond to my tone, my playing style? Do they embellish it, leave it neutral, or get in my tone's way? And then, how do I use the Amp's feature set to get the Response I want? How do speaker systems respond to me, is another question I ask. Except? All my cabs sound the same, too. Ha! That was a tough one for me to swallow. But it is truth. For me.

So, I'm not looking for a "flat" tone. I'm not lookin for a specific "tone". I have one already. What I need is an Accurate Response in basses and amps. Fine tuning a rig's response to my playing style, the type of gig, or type of room, is how I think on it today.

My realizations about me and my tone versus an amp's response has another huge positive. No More GAS! I keep my basses and rigs for years an years. Each time I play thru one I learn more about tweaking its response to my tone. In that way, my tone is refined over years. I really get to know my amps, their features and quirks. Tho I HATE, comedically, my tone, I have to acknowledge it. And I may as well put the money I might spend on a new piece of gear into my gas tank or my stomach. Heh.

I saw a video once, of Marcus Miller at a NAMM show. He was playin a Tony Franklin fretless thru an SWR rig similar to JPJs. Who do you think Marcus sounded like? That's right. He sounded just like Marcus.

 

[fermata]

View attachment 3777485

True words! Ironically, the reason we want to sound like [player] is precisely because they sound like themselves.

I completely believe that there's some sort of psychoacoustic 'fingerprint' embedded in each of us that results in the 'sounds like me'. For along time, I've found that if you give me most any bass and any amp, gimme about five minutes twiddling knobs, and it's . . . . . . going to sound like me. And I'm totally convinced that their is far more power in where and how you pluck the strings as far as tone goes, totally hand-related.

I'd be totally happy with a bass with a volume and tone, and a bass rig with gain, master gain, and 3-band EQ: I can do the rest, and . . . . . it will sound like me.

That's about what I have it down to--a comfortable, resonant bass, great strings, and an amp with 4-band EQ (I like that high mid control). I adjust a few knobs to set the basic sound, and the rest is up to me. And by 'me,' I mean technique, sure, but even more so my own sense of musicality--how I express feelings and ideas through sound.

That's partly why I've chosen a simple set-up. I once read the term 'instrument transparency,' which is the idea that the instrument is a means to an end, allowing one to play the music rather than the instrument. The instrument should be so familiar and comfortable that it's an extension of the player's musical mind and physical body.

In fact, I think that when one is tone chasing, even if one thinks it's about tone, it's more so about the musical whole and how the player we admire channels their self through their instrument. So yeah, my goal, in music--and in life--is to be(come) my authentic self, even if it takes a lifetime.

 

[Kaa]

This is a great thread. So, you're telling me, no matter how I run away from my bad tone, it's going to haunt my footsteps forever!?!? Oy.

 

[Wisebass]

Hi billiam5billion

A new amp or bass or strings or whatever might not be the fix-it

Let's see if I can find a stupid meme...

It took me 26 years of playing

It did not take me that long! (add: I found that out in the early 90s)

It is all in my fingers! Right hand position and the way I "hit" or "caress" the strings make my tones.

My technique is perfect!

I can make a $10000 boutique Ritter sound like a $50 bass!



That said, I like rounds ("broken in" but not dead!) flats don't make my bass sing the same way!

I like tube amps (because they add some hair)

I hate pups in the wrong position (e.g. mudbuckers are a no go!)


I produce a tone with my fingers and I use my equipment to transform (edit: or maybe translate?) it into a sound.

Do I sound like me with cheaper equipment? Yes!

Do I sound like me with the wrong equipment? Only to a certain point!


my 2 cents


greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[bucephylus]

So I posted my main player in another thread today and it got me thinking.

I've been playing bass for right around 26 years. Been through all kinds of rigs in that time. My first bass love was Matt Freeman of Rancid, so I chased that tone around for years and years, never really satisfied, always modding, trading, swapping strings and on and on forever.

Then, 10 years or so ago, I put together my first warmoth, a swamp ash 72 with a 90's MIM neck. Suddenly, it felt totally correct. Every part of the bass fit perfectly into what I wanted. I still didn't have that tone though!

So I kept going. I went through Tbirds, a couple Jazz basses, a schecter, a million different string brands, mods, flats, back to rounds, 4-5 different amp setups, pedals, all that stuff. The warmoth main player just kind of stuck around. Then about 4 years ago, I stopped changing the strings. I sold my last Jazz bass. I got down to a 115 combo amp and a simple boss overdrive.

Now, 10 years or so later, I found the tone! It's not Freeman's tone. It's mine. It took me 26 years of playing, 10 years of playing the same bass, and 4 years on the same strings to finally figure out that it's not the tone that's in my head that I'm reaching for, it's the tone that's in my hands that i cultivated over almost 3 decades.

Moral of the story is that if you're searching for a tone, it'll almost never be the new one. It'll be the old tone you've had forever that just keeps coming back. A new amp or bass or strings or whatever might not be the fix-it might be just sticking to the gear that feels the best over a looooong period of time.

As always, ymmv. Just thought I'd ramble.

Great topic!

Many, if not most, of us travel this path of discovery; imitating influential players for a while, then busting out with some concept of self awareness.

In my case, I went through Larry Taylor, then Geezer Butler, then Chris Squire; and finally things changed up when Stanley Clarke and then Jaco hit the scene. I was doing ok with the imitation thing, even up to Stanley's initial recordings; but, the gloves really came off when Jaco's first album came out. My initial response to that album was pretty much "to he11 with it." And though I did eventually come back to cover a bunch of Jaco's work, I was coming from a vastly different place at that point. And, if I ever need any reminders, all I have to do is listen to Crisis.

And, anyway, a major part of being a pop material musician is telling your own story every time you play. With authenticity. That is what sets Pop music apart from Classical. As Ray Brown quipped, the main thing "is to know a lot of songs." Which, for a bass player, means knowing what you are going to do with the songs such that the bass part is solid, but you still bring your own unique voice to it. Chops alone won't get the job done. Tone alone won't get the job done. We need to be whole package, each in our own ways; chops, tone, knowledge, experience, knowing a lot of tunes, and mostly knowing yourself.

 

[bassdude51]

I know that this has been said a zillion times here on TalkBass. Generalizing, there are 2 tones. The "living room" tone and the playing in a band live "in the mix" tone.

Usually, playing at home, we go for the scooped sound. Live in a band, we go for the "cut through the mix" sound.

 

[mongo2]

Decades ago my tone was flats. No matter what bass I had if it had flats I could work with it. About 15 years ago my tone changed to nylon tapes, again, no matter the bass it has to have tapes.

 

[billiam5billion]

I feel exactly the same way. My rig is as simple as I can make it. And, it would seem, any amp I play thru I end up dialing me into. No funnier way to explain it than this...

I have quite a few rigs at my disposal. Like, 20. No joke. So, I keep a few at home to fool around with. Regardless of the fact I am aware I always sound like me, I still like to twiddle knobs and experiment/learn about eq. I just bought an old SWR SM-900 and was plugging it up thru a couple cabs, putting it thru its paces to see what it might need. I have a buddy who insists that gear is the source of his tone, and refuses to believe his very nice bass sounded the same with every preamp he installed in it. So he calls, loves SWR gear, and asks what I think of the 900. Well, after playin thru my Demeter, then Interstellar Overdrive rigs, and goin back and forth thru the 900 and those two, I tell him I'm bummed, because each rig sounds identical. Even with controls at neutral positions. He'd sold me the Interstellar, sayin it didn't sound the same as his Grand Prix, or his other rigs, which he preferred. I had to disagree. Not only does my buddy sound bout the same thru his rigs, but he won't acknowledge that. He stresses every gear decision, every nuance of everything between his hands and an audience's ears. He's always sounded great in everything, but he won't hear me when I mention that. Heh. We've been brothers for over 20 years, so we give each other a bit of crap on occasion. I plugged into these three rigs, and I'll be darned if the tone comin out of them is darn close to identical. If I tweak em to my stage settings, the resemblance is even MORE apparent. It is a bummer, but it's also hilarious, that I can't get away from my tone. It's had me use different terminology in describing my tone, too.

I don't want a "flat" tone. I can certainly appreciate a great sounding amp upon firing it up. But ALL amps, for me, sound great on firing it up. What I want is an ACCURATE Response. Accurate to me, to the instrument I've chosen, and somewhat toward the gig I'm on and the room I'm in. That accuracy, I don't describe as a "rig's inherent tone". The rig RESPONDS to MY tone. I'm looking at RESPONSES of rigs. How do they respond to my tone, my playing style? Do they embellish it, leave it neutral, or get in my tone's way? And then, how do I use the Amp's feature set to get the Response I want? How do speaker systems respond to me, is another question I ask. Except? All my cabs sound the same, too. Ha! That was a tough one for me to swallow. But it is truth. For me.

So, I'm not looking for a "flat" tone. I'm not lookin for a specific "tone". I have one already. What I need is an Accurate Response in basses and amps. Fine tuning a rig's response to my playing style, the type of gig, or type of room, is how I think on it today.

My realizations about me and my tone versus an amp's response has another huge positive. No More GAS! I keep my basses and rigs for years an years. Each time I play thru one I learn more about tweaking its response to my tone. In that way, my tone is refined over years. I really get to know my amps, their features and quirks. Tho I HATE, comedically, my tone, I have to acknowledge it. And I may as well put the money I might spend on a new piece of gear into my gas tank or my stomach. Heh.

I saw a video once, of Marcus Miller at a NAMM show. He was playin a Tony Franklin fretless thru an SWR rig similar to JPJs. Who do you think Marcus sounded like? That's right. He sounded just like Marcus.

"Accurate response" is a terrific concept-This is kinda why I haven't touched the knobs on my amp in months. I have that end dialed. All I have to mess with is my tone knob and my attack. Pretty much any adjustment I need to make for the service of the song can be done with a pick, fingers, or rolling off the treble.

Most importantly though, being comfy on your instrument is the top priority. I liken it to skateboarding. If you go to a remote town in the Midwest, you might find a very small group of skaters who only get to skate one or two crappy little spots, and they absolutely shred those spots. If a pro comes through town, those kids will upstage them because they are perfectly adapted to that spot.

 

[luciens]

Moral of the story is that if you're searching for a tone, it'll almost never be the new one. It'll be the old tone you've had forever that just keeps coming back. A new amp or bass or strings or whatever might not be the fix-it might be just sticking to the gear that feels the best over a looooong period of time.

Oh lordy, I hope not..... I'd probably just jump off a bridge and end it all - if I were stuck with my old tone that I had when I started (and for a large part of my gigging career) that would be the end of the world for me.

Fortunately, though, I've been lucky that the new tone became my tone on the multiple occasions in which I did actively try to change it. And that was a good thing in those cases. Also, it sometimes came about by not just technique changes, but different basses and amps too.

So I'll have to be the contrary one here. Definitely do search for a tone if you don't like the one you have. You may be pleasantly surprised even with a minor technique change like plucking closer to the bridge or over a pickup. Or you might find a particular bass that you sound better on, etc.

Of course, I do agree that we always sound like "us" to some degree, but sometimes the new tone is better and one that's worth working on and keeping.

L

 

[LoTone]

I have been playing for over 30 years now. Over the last 10 years or so, I came to a place where I am enjoying playing other people's material with my tone. I find this more interesting than trying to replicate, down to the closest atom, the tone of some legendary bass player.

 

[David McIntire]

"Accurate response" is a terrific concept-This is kinda why I haven't touched the knobs on my amp in months. I have that end dialed. All I have to mess with is my tone knob and my attack. Pretty much any adjustment I need to make for the service of the song can be done with a pick, fingers, or rolling off the treble.

Most importantly though, being comfy on your instrument is the top priority. I liken it to skateboarding. If you go to a remote town in the Midwest, you might find a very small group of skaters who only get to skate one or two crappy little spots, and they absolutely shred those spots. If a pro comes through town, those kids will upstage them because they are perfectly adapted to that spot.

Yes!!! I very rarely, unless screwin around at home pretending I can change my tone, touch ANY of my knobs once set. In fact, this concept has helped me on gigs. I don't chase the room. I know my rig sounds the same. How could it not? It's wires, and components. What does change, is the way I hear me in a given room. My ears work different in different surroundings. My gear is the exact same. So, instead of chasing the room with a thousand tweaks? I learn to listen differently in different rooms.

Most of my tweaks, if any, are CUT, as well. I try to remove what is masking the response I want. Rather than adding or boosting. I find my results come faster in this manner. And my rig becomes more responsive.

My favorite rigs are the ones that stay consistent, night to night, room to room. Those tend to be the more simply laid out rigs. The fewer controls, the more responsive my rig seems to be. So, when I need more lows? I pick toward the neck, not turn up the bass control.

 

[billiam5billion]

Oh lordy, I hope not..... I'd probably just jump off a bridge and end it all - if I were stuck with my old tone that I had when I started (and for a large part of my gigging career) that would be the end of the world for me.

Fortunately, though, I've been lucky that the new tone became my tone on the multiple occasions in which I did actively try to change it. And that was a good thing in those cases. Also, it sometimes came about by not just technique changes, but different basses and amps too.

So I'll have to be the contrary one here. Definitely do search for a tone if you don't like the one you have. You may be pleasantly surprised even with a minor technique change like plucking closer to the bridge or over a pickup. Or you might find a particular bass that you sound better on, etc.

Of course, I do agree that we always sound like "us" to some degree, but sometimes the new tone is better and one that's worth working on and keeping.

L

Oh I totally agree with you! I think it's a combination. I didn't settle on the bass I did because the sound was perfect, I just found it completely comfortable to play and so I picked it up more than the others. And then my tone grew out of that habit. I think it's more of a consolation to newer players, especially when they're looking at all the crazy gear on this forum or seeing all the bedroom maestros on YouTube, to let them know to just stick with it and play the gear that they are the most likely to gravitate back toward, and their tone will establish itself.