Checking my understanding of scales/modes ...

[Groove Doctor]

Are you asking MalColmAmos?

Show me what you've got....

 

[MalcolmAmos]

TheIndieKid asked (can not get the quote to work for some reason) What would a guitar be playing in all this? What would this modal vamp be

To find the chords for a modal vamp we need to know the tonic chord and then the chord that contains the signature note of the mode. We get the signature note by comparing the major or minor scale notes to the mode notes, for example:

Dorian is a minor mode so we compare it to the natural minor scale.
R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. Dorian's notes are R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. What's the difference?

The 6. So our vamp could be one tonic chord, in what ever key you want to use, and then one chord that has a natural 6 in it's makeup. Of course that 6 depends on what key the tonic chord is based upon. This two chord vamp is repeated over and over.

Lydian's signature note is the #4.
Mixolydian's signature note is the b7.
Phrygian's signature note is the b2.
Locrian - I find that the m7b5 chord in a one chord vamp droning in the background works well.

 

[brianrost]

This stuff twists my little monkey brain! Doesn't Phrygian Dominant have a minor 2nd, minor 6th, and minor 7th.

Actually you are correct. I added that in from a page where I pulled the rest of the text. My bad.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Thank you @MalcolmAmos - that's my approach too, I just never knew what to call it.

Could you add some song names to further illustrate? eg. the song Caravan for Phrygian mode, etc.

Can not come up with names right now - but Phrygian gives a Middle Eastern sound so yes a song about a Caravan would work, what others would go with a Phrygian mode I leave to you. The answer really is anything that needs a Middle Eastern mood.

 

[Mushroo]

Strange... I always thought "Caravan" was in F Minor, with the "exotic" sound created by the augmented 2nd interval between Db and E natural in the F Harmonic Minor scale.

 

[Mushroo]

Are you questioning MalColm?

My comment was not personally directed at Malcolm. You have my permission to participate in the conversation as well.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Are you questioning MalColm?

Yep this is where we get into tonal or modal. If you want your song to resolve to the tonic to close - use tonal. If you want it to fade to black use modal.

You say Caravan is in F minor. Does it have a V-I cadence, if so it's tonal, if not it may be a vamp..... and then modal solo notes would be in order.

IMO Modes are used in improv solos more so than with actual published music.

A bassists can life a life time with out modes.

 

[TheIndieKid]

TheIndieKid asked (can not get the quote to work for some reason) What would a guitar be playing in all this? What would this modal vamp be

To find the chords for a modal vamp we need to know the tonic chord and then the chord that contains the signature note of the mode. We get the signature note by comparing the major or minor scale notes to the mode notes, for example:

Dorian is a minor mode so we compare it to the natural minor scale.
R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. Dorian's notes are R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. What's the difference?

The 6. So our vamp could be one tonic chord, in what ever key you want to use, and then one chord that has a natural 6 in it's makeup. Of course that 6 depends on what key the tonic chord is based upon. This two chord vamp is repeated over and over.

Lydian's signature note is the #4.
Mixolydian's signature note is the b7.
Phrygian's signature note is the b2.
Locrian - I find that the vamp for Locrian is the m7b5 chord in a one chord vamp droning in the background works well.

Thank you very much for answering. So if a guitarist plays any chord with a 6th in, you can play the Dorian or Ionian more?

Doesn't that take a lot of mental guesswork in thinking "Right, so the guitarist is playing this chord here, so I can only use this mode right here, but he's using an Am chord here so I can use an Ionian or Dorian mode?"

 

[Mushroo]

Don't forget Van Morrison's "Caravan"...

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Here we go.......

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Thank you very much for answering. So if a guitarist plays any chord with a 6th in, you can play the Dorian or Ionian more?

Dorian if your tonic is a minor chord. Ionian if your tonic chord is a major chord. Yep

Doesn't that take a lot of mental guesswork in thinking "Right, so the guitarist is playing this chord here, so I can only use this mode right here, but he's using an Am chord here so I can use an Ionian or Dorian mode?"

Don't use Dorian when a minor chord is active and then use Ionian when a major chord is active. Why? How many moods does your song have? Normally one. Pick the mode that fits that song's mood.

Yes some teach changing modes over each chord. I think this is not the best way.

 

[Febs]

Thank you very much for answering. So if a guitarist plays any chord with a 6th in, you can play the Dorian or Ionian more?

Doesn't that take a lot of mental guesswork in thinking "Right, so the guitarist is playing this chord here, so I can only use this mode right here, but he's using an Am chord here so I can use an Ionian or Dorian mode?"

That's why it's useful to understand how the modes are constructed and to have at least a basic understanding of harmony and not to be just a "parallel modes guy" or a "relative modes guy."

 

[Mushroo]

Thank you very much for answering. So if a guitarist plays any chord with a 6th in, you can play the Dorian or Ionian more?

Doesn't that take a lot of mental guesswork in thinking "Right, so the guitarist is playing this chord here, so I can only use this mode right here, but he's using an Am chord here so I can use an Ionian or Dorian mode?"

When in doubt, play A, C, and E which are the root, 3rd, and 5th of the guitarist's Amin chord. You don't need to think in "modes" to play notes that fit with the guitar chord.

If you feel compelled to insert some non-chord tones into your bass line, then you need to know how the Amin chord fits into the musical context. You would probably make different note choices depending whether the Amin is the i chord in the key of Amin vs. the ii chord in GMaj vs. the vi chord in CMaj vs. the iii chord in FMaj.

 

[Mushroo]

I think MalColm deserves his personal thread at TB.

@MalcolmAmos is one of my very favorite TalkBassers because his wisdom comes from real-world experience. We are lucky to have Malcolm here at TalkBass; he is a treasured asset!

 

[mambo4]

I'm a Parallel mode guy, and in parallel modes the key stays the same and the notes change. Relative the key changes and the notes stay the same.

Sorry to nit pick but you have that exactly backwards

[edit]
Re-reading the post by @MalcolmAmos, It seems I misunderstood him.
To my brain, "key stays the same" means key signature stays the same
Malcolm's words "The Key stays the same" means the ROOT TONIC of the key stays the same
- and that is indeed parallel modes.
Which Is good to know, as Malcolm is very careful about the information he shares.
You think we'd all be better at dancing about architecture by now....
[/edit]

Relative: same 7 notes, different tonic. ( Key signature stays the same.)
example: C major(ionian) D dorian, E phrygian...
Think Relative: shares the same DNA
Great for teaching beginners the shapes of modes

Parallel: same tonic, different 7 notes. (Key signature changes.)
example: C major(ionian) C dorian, C phrygian...
Think Parallel: different lines, same direction*
Great for exploring the fact that modes are different sounds against the tonic.

 

[Febs]

Don't use Dorian when a minor chord is active and then use Ionian when a major chord is active. Why? How many moods does your song have? Normally one. Pick the mode that fits that song's mood.

Yes some teach changing modes over each chord. I think this is not the best way.

Picking one mode will work for some songs, and fail miserably for others. For example, take this very common progression:

C | A7 | D7 | G7

Playing C Ionian over the whole progression is not a good choice, because the C natural clashes with the C# in the A7 chord, and the F in C Ionian clashes with the F# in the D7 chord. In this case, there is no single mode that going to work over the four chords, and it's better to understand how each chord is functioning in the progression.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

So the tonal center (root chord) of that progression is...... and that is the key we should play over that progression.

Yes I agree it does not lend itself to modal music, it's tonal.

 

[Wasnex]

Sorry to nit pick but you have that exactly backwards

Relative: same 7 notes, different tonic. ( Key signature stays the same.)
example: C major(ionian) D dorian, E phrygian...
Think Relative: shares the same DNA
Great for teaching beginners the shapes of modes

Parallel: same tonic, different 7 notes. (Key signature changes.)
example: C major(ionian) C dorian, C phrygian...
Think Parallel: different lines, same direction*
Great for exploring the fact that modes are different sounds against the tonic.

* this is probably good mnemonic, but a poor metaphor. Parallel as a geometry idea could easily map to 'same notes, different starting points', so the confusion is understandable.

I understood Malcolm's approach as parallel. The modes are thought of as alterations of major and minor keys. For the parallel major forms: C ionian is C major, C Lydian is C major with #4, C Mixolydian is C major with b7
For the parallel minor forms: C Dorian is C minor with #6, Phrygian is C minor with b2, Aoleon is C minor, Locrian is C minor with b2 and b 5.

When practicing modes I try to approach it from both parallel and relative approaches. But I usually think terms of minor modes parallel to A minor instead minor modes parallel to C minor, so mixing a bit of relative and parallel.

 

[Wasnex]

I know a lot of TB members have been nice to me and installed that WUTP block.
Is there anybody at TB who would tell me what the following term means.
"in parallel modes the key stays the same"?

What is the KEY in music?

Is the key of C major the same as the key of C minor?

Next.

What is the difference between C Dorian and C Lydian?

C Lydian - one F#.
C Dorian - two flats Bb and Eb.

But the KEY is the same???

C major (Ionian mode) is relative to A min (Aeolian mode) and share the same key signature...0 accidentals.

C Lydian is in the tonal centers (relative keys) defined by G major or E natural minor. C Dorian is in the tonal centers (relative keys) defined by Bb major or G natural minor.

C Lydian and C Dorian are parallel modes rather then relative. The root stays the same but the key signature changes.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you for your answer.
Now.

How would you understand the following statement?

"The following is parallel. The key (!!!-???) stays the same and the notes change."

P.S. Sorry for addressing you with that "strange" statement, but you've said,

You'll have to ask @MalcolmAmos, as IMHO the statement contradicts the explanation he provided later in the same post (#10) My comment "I understood Malcolm's approach as parallel" related to Malcolms explanation rather than Malcom's statement. Perhaps I misunderstood both. Is this your point?