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Checking my understanding of scales/modes ...

Feb 5, 2013
1,686
2,281
Fayetteville, NC
Disclosures
Endorsing Artist: Used Fender Lead Sleds and Hartke cabs with bent grills
Imagine you're talking to a ret ... uhhh ... I mean, a kid who quit school in the third grade because there was RECESS and he just doesn't play. And you're staring at this chubby little oxygen thief and wondering if his parents had any children that lived, and while picking nose he looks at you expectantly and says ...

"If I ever steal a worn out Squier Strat and I want to play the notes of the Dorian mode of the G major scale, I will play G --> A --> Bb --> C --> D --> E --> F --> G."

Then he wipes a big green glob on the filthy shirt barely covering his ample belly and continues ... "What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?"
 
"If I ever steal a worn out Squier Strat and I want to play the notes of the Dorian mode of the G major scale, I will play G --> A --> Bb --> C --> D --> E --> F --> G."
Not quite. If I think of Dorian in the key of G major (one sharp), you'll have to take the notes available to you, G A B C D E F#, and start on the second scale degree, that is on the A. Your Dorian would thus be A B C D E F# G.
Then he wipes a big green glob on the filthy shirt barely covering his ample belly and continues ... "What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?"
G natural minor has two flats. Same as Bb major, its relative major. What we have learned above applies here as well: Start on the second scale degree of the major scale: C D Eb F G A Bb. Or, if you'd rather think in G minor, start on the fourth scale degree.
 
I've been sick since last Monday. I have snot on the brain. :(


Let me try it this way ...

What are the first eight notes that comprise the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale if my root is A?
 
And the point of this is....????? :confused:

For the natural minor scale, the same mode names are used but the names run in order of scale degree from Aeolian to Mixolydian.

The two other minor scales have slightly different mode names because of the different scale degrees.

1) Major (which includes natural minor)

Ionian (I)
Dorian (ii)
Phrygian (iii)
Lydian (IV)
Mixolydian (V)
Aeolian (vi)
Locrian (vii°)

2) Harmonic Minor

Harmonic Minor (i)
Locrian #6 (ii°)
Ionian #5 (III)
Dorian #4 (iv)
Phrygian Dominant (V)
Lydian #2 (VI)
Ultralocrian (vii°)

3) Melodic Minor

Melodic Minor (i)
Dorian b2 (ii)
Lydian #5 (III)
Lydian Dominant (IV)
Mixolydian b6 (V)
Semilocrian (vi°)
Superlocrian (vii°)
 
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You can refer to "G Dorian," which is G A Bb C D E F G, as you mentioned in your original post.

Or you can refer to the "second mode of the G major" scale, which means the mode resulting from playing the G major scale starting at the second degree (A B C D E F# G) which is A Dorian.

But referring to "the Dorian mode of the G major scale" is mixing up those two concepts and doesn't make much sense.
 
"What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?"
You play the G natural minor scale but sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. WHAT??? Hang on...

You can refer to "G Dorian," which is G A Bb C D E F G, as you mentioned in your original post.
Correct as Dorian will have a flatted 3 and 7.

Or you can refer to the "second mode of the G major" scale, which means the mode resulting from playing the G major scale starting at the second degree (A B C D E F# G) which is A Dorian.
Correct as Dorian will have a flatted 3 and 7.

But referring to "the Dorian mode of the G major scale" is mixing up those two concepts and doesn't make much sense.
I refer to it like this all the time. You do not because you are a Relative mode guy. I'm a Parallel mode guy, and in parallel modes the key stays the same and the notes change. Relative the key changes and the notes stay the same. Both get you to the same place, just take different roads. I like parallel because I do not have to do all the mental; I'm in X and the mode I want will be Z.

That is one of the reasons modes are misunderstood. Sometime people speak in relative and some time people speak in parallel. Most of the time they do not tell you which way they are talking, relative or parallel, and take for granted you understand.

The following is parallel. The key stays the same and the notes change.

Ionian = R-2-3-4-5-6-7. Home base for the major modes. Notice its the same as the major scale.
Lydian = R-2-3-#4-5-6-7. Keep the key and change one note.
Mixolydian = R-2-3-4-5-6-b7 Keep the key and change one note.
That takes care of the major modes. Now the minor modes are:

Aeolian = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. Home base for the minor modes. Notice its the same as the natural minor scale.
Dorian = R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. Keep the key and change one note. OP notice its the natural minor scale with the b6 sharped to a natural 6.
Phrygian = R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7? Keep the key and change one note.
Locrian = R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7. Keep the key and change two notes.

Dirt simple definition; modes are moods of the major scale. Need a mood, play the mode that gives that mood. Understand modal vamps do not resolve back to the tonic tonal center. They drone on so the modal mood has time to develop. So if you are playing your modes over a V-I chord progression - good luck - the resolution to the tonal center is not going to allow your modal mood to develop. That V-I resolution will let the tonic tonal center cut through your modal efforts. Sorry..... Scott Devine talks about running your modes over a droning E string. Modes need a droning vamp in the background.

Ionian is the same as the major scale and gives an attractive up beat mood. So will the major scale. IMO Ionian lends itself to tonal music much more than modal music. It sounds great over a tonal V-I chord progression. If you are going tonal use the major scale with a V-I chord progression - so the tonal center can develop. If you are using a V-I chord progression and playing modal notes, good luck with them cutting through the tonal V-I resolution.

Lydian is major and some say a day dreamy sound. I do not hear that and Lydian is so much like Ionian that I seldom use it. I do use Lydian dominant - R-2-3-#4, 5, 6, b7. That b7 moves it far enough from Lydian that I can hear a difference.

Mixolydian is major and some say has a Latin sound. If I'm going with a major mode Mixolydian is probably going to be my choice.

Now to the minor modes.

Aeolian is the same as the Natural minor scale and is home base for the minor modes. It is said to have a sad sound. I do not hear sad, I do hear minor. Again IMO Aeolian would not be my first choice as a minor mode. Makes a great minor tonal center as it is the same as the natural minor scale.

Dorian is said to have an attractive minor sound. I agree. If I go minor modal Dorian would be my first minor mode choice.

Phrygian is said to have a Middle Eastern sound. I agree.

Locrian is said to have a dark and dense sound. I agree. Locrian IMO is best served over a one chord vamp of the m7b5 chord droning in the background.

Now for the rest of the story. Your modal sound will need a modal vamp under it for the modal sound to develop. In a nut shell that two chord vamp would/could be the tonic chord and then another chord having the signature note of the mode you are using. For example Lydian's #4 note would be in the second chord. Do a Google on modal harmony.

Good luck.
 
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Malcomb ... thnx for posting that! A lot to chew on but I already can see it will really help clarify some questions I had this morning once I get my (water)head around it. Much appreciated.
 
Imagine you're talking to a ret ... uhhh ... I mean, a kid who quit school in the third grade because there was RECESS and he just doesn't play. And you're staring at this chubby little oxygen thief and wondering if his parents had any children that lived, and while picking nose he looks at you expectantly and says ...

"If I ever steal a worn out Squier Strat and I want to play the notes of the Dorian mode of the G major scale, I will play G --> A --> Bb --> C --> D --> E --> F --> G."

Then he wipes a big green glob on the filthy shirt barely covering his ample belly and continues ... "What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?"
My wife thinks I just giggle incessantly for no reason and she thinks it happens totally out of the blue, like she's concerned that my marbles are leaking out of my head. Me reading this ^ has her all worried again. I danged near blew a gasket on this one. :roflmao::laugh:
 
You play the G natural minor scale but sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. WHAT??? Hang on...


Correct as Dorian will have a flatted 3 and 7.


Correct as Dorian will have a flatted 3 and 7.


I refer to it like this all the time. You do not because you are a Relative mode guy. I'm a Parallel mode guy, and in parallel modes the key stays the same and the notes change. Relative the key changes and the notes stay the same. Both get you to the same place, just take different roads. I like parallel because I do not have to do all the mental; I'm in X and the mode I want will be Z.

That is one of the reasons modes are misunderstood. Sometime people speak in relative and some time people speak in parallel. Most of the time they do not tell you which way they are talking, relative or parallel, and take for granted you understand.

The following is parallel. The key stays the same and the notes change.

Ionian = R-2-3-4-5-6-7. Home base for the major modes. Notice its the same as the major scale.
Lydian = R-2-3-#4-5-6-7. Keep the key and change one note.
Mixolydian = R-2-3-4-5-6-b7 Keep the key and change one note.
That takes care of the major modes. Now the minor modes are:

Aeolian = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. Home base for the minor modes. Notice its the same as the natural minor scale.
Dorian = R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. Keep the key and change one note. OP notice its the natural minor scale with the b6 sharped to a natural 6.
Phrygian = R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7? Keep the key and change one note.
Locrian = R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7. Keep the key and change two notes.

Dirt simple definition; modes are moods of the major scale. Need a mood, play the mode that gives that mood. Understand modal vamps do not resolve back to the tonic tonal center. They drone on so the modal mood has time to develop. So if you are playing your modes over a V-I chord progression - good luck - the resolution to the tonal center is not going to allow your modal mood to develop. That V-I resolution will let the tonic tonal center cut through your modal efforts. Sorry..... Scott Devine talks about running your modes over a droning E string. Modes need a droning vamp in the background.

Ionian is the same as the major scale and gives an attractive up beat mood. So will the major scale. IMO Ionian lends itself to tonal music much more than modal music. It sounds great over a tonal V-I chord progression. If you are going tonal use the major scale with a V-I chord progression - so the tonal center can develop. If you are using a V-I chord progression and playing modal notes, good luck with them cutting through the tonal V-I resolution.

Lydian is major and some say a day dreamy sound. I do not hear that and Lydian is so much like Ionian that I seldom use it. I do use Lydian dominant - R-2-3-#4, 5, 6, b7. That b7 moves it far enough from Lydian that I can hear a difference.

Mixolydian is major and some say has a Latin sound. If I'm going with a major mode Mixolydian is probably going to be my choice.

Now to the minor modes.

Aeolian is the same as the Natural minor scale and is home base for the minor modes. It is said to have a sad sound. I do not hear sad, I do hear minor. Again IMO Aeolian would not be my first choice as a minor mode. Makes a great minor tonal center as it is the same as the natural minor scale.

Dorian is said to have an attractive minor sound. I agree. If I go minor modal Dorian would be my first minor mode choice.

Phrygian is said to have a Middle Eastern sound. I agree.

Locrian is said to have a dark and dense sound. I agree. Locrian IMO is best served over a one chord vamp of the m7b5 chord droning in the background.

Now for the rest of the story. Your modal sound will need a modal vamp under it for the modal sound to develop. In a nut shell that two chord vamp would/could be the tonic chord and then another chord having the signature note of the mode you are using. For example Lydian's #4 note would be in the second chord. Do a Google on modal harmony.

Good luck.
Damn. You do put a lot of effort in to explaining in your posts. Really appreciate it. What would a guitar be playing in all this? What would this modal vamp be?

I don't understand why people teach in the relative modes, instead of parallel. This is a new concept to me, and parallel seems so much easier to grasp.
 
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LOL. Thank you, MalcolmAmos.
It's really a lot like subatomic particle physics, is it a particle or a wave? You just have to be able to live the duality and see both at once! ;) (Yeah, like that's going to make understanding it any easier for anyone but a fellow Physics Geek!)
:woot::roflmao::cool:
 
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Thank you @MalcolmAmos - that's my approach too, I just never knew what to call it.

Could you add some song names to further illustrate? eg. the song Caravan for Phrygian mode, etc.
Back into Phrygian mode this morning, it's 17 degrees out! :eek::woot::roflmao::jawdrop::wacky:
 
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