Checking my understanding of scales/modes ...

[Wasnex]

It's a good idea to solidify the knowledge of the term, Key (in Music).
One first needs to learn the usual Modes (why?) and how they differ from scales (remember Ionian?).
Anyway, that understanding about "in the key of...) comes first.
The statement about "the same key" but different notes is incorrect.

Obviously different key = different notes unless we are talking relative major/minor keys, so clearly the offending statement is wrong.

Please expand on why it's important to learn "the usual modes" and how Ionian differs from major. As they both have the same notes and start in the same place I would consider them relative and parallel equivalents. What am I missing?

I would also consider C major and D Dorian to be equivalent in terms of key, although Dorian implies a scale starting on the supertonic of the relative major key, or starting on the sub dominant of the relative natural minor key.

I normally think of modes in terms of the key signature that defines them (relative) and also how they compare to modified major and minor forms (parallel). Should I abandon the idea of parallel modified forms and just think purely in relative terms? If yes, why? It seems useful to know a Lydian mode varies from the parallel Major form by a single chromatism (#4).

When I am analyzing music and practicing improvisation, I tend to think in tonal centers and key signatures instead of modes, unless the song is written with a note to play a modal line. When I practice modes I tend to think in both relative and parallel terms. By this I mean, what key defines the notes of the mode and what shape defines the mode. Thinking in relative terms helps solidify my understanding of a key signature. Thinking in terms of modified parallel forms is useful for developing "muscle memory", memorizing the fretboard, and getting the sound of a specific mode in one's head.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

.......Please expand on why it's important to learn "the usual modes" and how Ionian differs from major. As they both have the same notes and start in the same place I would consider them relative and parallel equivalents. What am I missing?

1. Usual Modes: There are seven, some elect to ignore certain modes. It's their book they can write what they like. It's as simple as they decided to omit two. Which two? Depends on what book you are reading. If it were my book and I could only have five, I'd leave out Lydian and Locrian.

2. How does Ionian differ from the Major scale? They both have the same notes, no difference here, however, the chord progression, or modal vamp, played under those notes give those notes a difference sound. The progression of chords make those notes tonal or modal.

3. Tonal harmony wants to resolve to the tonic I chord. So tonal begs for resolution and an ending. Modal will not use a V-I progression, it likes a modal vamp. Do a Google on modal vamps.

Until we understand the definition of tonal and modal, we are doomed to wade around in the modal swamp.

 

[Wasnex]

During my short stint at TB, I've actively participated in so many "About Modes" discussions, and most of those threads ended up as "CLOSED". Due to my emotional promotion of Modes, I've only acquired "un-friends" and "block WUTP postings".

I've even posted a link to one of the best explanations about Modes at the Double Bass forum where "serious PRO" musicians socialize.
I would highly recommend for you to check that tutorial.
Modes confusion - please help

In short.
In the shower (with my far less than perfect ears) I sing the Ionian Mode (while thinking about C major scale), at the keyboard I sing the C major scale.

1. Usual Modes: There are seven, some elect to ignore certain modes. It's their book they can write what they like. It's as simple as they decided to omit two. Which two? Depends on what book you are reading. If it were my book and I could only have five, I'd leave out Lydian and Locrian.

2. How does Ionian differ from the Major scale? They both have the same notes, no difference here, however, the chord progression, or modal vamp, played under those notes give those notes a difference sound. The progression of chords make those notes tonal or modal.

3. Tonal harmony wants to resolve to the tonic I chord. So tonal begs for resolution and an ending. Modal will not use a V-I progression, it likes a modal vamp. Do a Google on modal vamps.

Until we understand the definition of tonal and modal, we are doomed to wade around in the modal swamp.

@MalcolmAmos and @Whousedtoplay I have read the suggested links and downloaded/skimmed the Advanced Theory Manual. Thanks.

So the difference between Major and Ionian is the ramification that tonal and modal harmony functions differently. My foundation of tonal harmony is pretty limited and based on a single page from my associates level college theory book, which I probably haven't opened in decades. I only made it to the third semester, but I am sure my understanding has been further informed by years of playing and talking about music and the occasional Google search.

I have a basic understanding that different modes have different harmonic tendencies, but have never seen anything that differentiates between the tendencies of major and Ionian or minor and Aeolian. From what I have previously read, there seems to be some disagreement between academics upon the harmonic tendencies of various modes (WRT functioning modal harmony).

Not sure how the harmonic tendencies are useful as a bass player...certainly they would be useful for a composer writing a modal composition, or a piano player who needs to improvise a modal harmony for the introduction of tune. In truth, I have rarely played a piece with functioning modal harmony, but modal vamps are common. For example "So What" uses D and Eb Dorian.

Off and on throughout my career, I dedicated time to the "usual" 7 modes. At times I had the parallel modified form definitions memorized and under my fingers, and I could think diatonically in all keys. My job entailed playing tunes from the Real Book on a regular basis, and although studying the modes helped me improvise better, I rarely drew on modes directly while playing except for those tunes that had a modal section or modal vamp.

I must say that post #6 totally blew my mind with the modal treatment of the harmonic and melodic/jazz minor scales. Until this thread I had never seen an extended modal system applied to the modified minor forms. Every time I previously looked up modes online, the discussion only covered the "usual" 7. I found this a bit odd, as obviously more forms are required for analysis of common jazz tunes.

The reality is the "usual" 7 taxes my cognitive ability to it's limits, so adding and keeping track of the additional forms associated with the Harmonic and Jazz minor feels impossible. It's an interesting mental construct that I will study, but I doubt I will ever be able to apply it in a practical manner. My working memory is insufficient to hold all of the facets in my mind at one time.

IMHO The academic knowledge is interesting, but primarily useful in analyzing and practicing tunes, teaching theory, or composing. I believe academic knowledge of modes is too mentally taxing to apply in real time while we play. The value of studying modes is it informs our ears and muscle memory. Therefore, with study and practice, the idea of a mode can serve as an archetype linked to a mental shortcut that we apply to our playing with little conscious effort. Life time of study indeed!

 

[MalcolmAmos]

You make a good point. Modal is there. Do I need modal? Not very often, but, it is there if needed.

 

[Mushroo]

I know a lot of TB members have been nice to me and installed that WUTP block.
Is there anybody at TB who would tell me what the following term means.
"in parallel modes the key stays the same"?

What is the KEY in music?

Is the key of C major the same as the key of C minor?

Next.

What is the difference between C Dorian and C Lydian?

C Lydian - one F#.
C Dorian - two flats Bb and Eb.

But the KEY is the same???

In my (somewhat controversial) opinion:

C Major, C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian can be in the "key of C Major."

C Natural Minor, C Harmonic Minor, C Melodic Minor, C Aeolian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, and possibly C Locrian can be in the "key of C Minor."

 

[Wasnex]

You make a good point. Modal is there. Do I need modal? Not very often, but, it is there if needed.

Well I was studying Night and Day in the Real Book last night and I was thinking the Eb7 in bar 13 could be analyzed (modally) as Lydian Dominant due to the repeated A natural passing tone in the melody. IMO, The chord does not seem to function in Bb minor, rather more like a tritone sub of the secondary dominant for the following D7sus4. Did I mention this stuff blows my mind.

 

[Wasnex]

Just don't take to much from those "copy-paste" fans or "Scot said this".

Just remember about the KEY! drool

I think we agree

 

[mambo4]

Read George Russell's book, The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization.

"And if you gaze to long into The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization also gazes into you" -Nietsche

 

[Mushroo]

LOL.

1. Are modes DIATONIC?

It occurs to me that when we discuss relative modes (i.e. "C Dorian is built on the 2nd degree of Bb Major") we are kind of thinking "diatonically" and when we discuss parallel modes (i.e. "C Dorian is C Minor with a natural 6th") we are kind of thinking "non-diatonically." From a certain point of view.

Non-diatonicism is a feature of most of the music I enjoy. Therefore when I say a song is "in the key of C Major" I assume it will have some sharps and flats, not just the natural notes. For example if I hear a nice C Lydian melody, I don't think of it as "key of G Major starting on C" (relative/diatonic thinking) but rather as "key of C Major with a #4 for that Lydian flavor" (parallel/non-diatonic thinking). But that's just me, and I tip my hat to the relative thinkers, who although coming from a different perspective, are also correct.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But that's just me, and I tip my hat to the relative thinkers, who although coming from a different perspective, are also correct.

P.S. Nothing personal.

Here is a link to John Goldby's


Jazz Concepts: Scales & Modes Explained

The chord does not seem to function in Bb minor, rather more like a tritone sub of the secondary dominant for the following D7sus4. Did I mention this stuff blows my mind.

P.S.2. (A little bit personal).

I wish SteveCS, who I recon as one of the most knowledgeable TB members on Modes and overall Music Theory/Harmony would share his ideas about your vision on Modes, scales, etc...
It would be a very beneficial and interesting topic for more advanced musicians.

 

[Nashrakh]

In my (somewhat controversial) opinion:

C Major, C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian can be in the "key of C Major."

C Natural Minor, C Harmonic Minor, C Melodic Minor, C Aeolian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, and possibly C Locrian can be in the "key of C Minor."

How is this controversial? Bach seems to agree with you. For example, when he writes a cantata over a Dorian chorale, like BWV 36.2, which is in F# Dorian, he'll use the key of F# minor (3 sharps) and alter any and all Ds to D#s instead of doing it the conventional way (the way I was taught) of choosing the key of E major (4 sharps), of which F# Dorian would be the supertonic mode.

 

[Nashrakh]

F# Dorian isn't a "key" so the Bach cantata isn't "in F# Dorian." Rather, it is in the key of "F# Minor" (3 sharps) and Dorian is a sound composers are "allowed" to use in a minor key. I don't have the sheet music in front of me, but I bet you Bach uses some other notes like D natural or E sharp somewhere in there, too, and doesn't adhere strictly to F# Dorian.

Yes yes, shoddy use of terminology on my part. Not used to writing about theory in English.

All I wanted to say was that he took a chorale that adheres to a specific mode but doesn't take the textbook route (at least the one I was taught in classes on counterpoint) of using a key signature that diatonically incorporates this mode.

FWIW, yes there's E#s as a leading tone all over the place (making it F# melodic minor), but I've yet to see any D naturals in this piece, even when the line descends.

Furthermore, all scores in the Jazz lingo I've yet seen used the way of associating modes and keys you mentioned. Kind of like the question in another thread, what's the key of a blues in F? Most will say its signature will have one flat, and any alterations will be marked in the score.

I'll do you all a favor and pretend I never said anything.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'll do you all a favor and pretend I never said anything.

but you said.
The plot thickens.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

a Dorian chorale, like BWV 36.2, which is in F# Dorian

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV036-V&P.pdf

Let's check the score from here and analyze it.
I think it could be very beneficial to the OP's question, "What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?"

 

[SteveCS]

personal.
...
P.S.2. (A little bit personal).

I wish SteveCS, who I recon as one of the most knowledgeable TB members on Modes and overall Music Theory/Harmony would share his ideas about your vision on Modes, scales, etc...
It would be a very beneficial and interesting topic for more advanced musicians.

@Whousedtoplay
Thanks for the invitation and your kind words, but I think I'll sit this one out. There's so much pick'n'mix of musical terms, definitions and concepts going on I really don't know where to start!

 

[Mushroo]

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV036-V&P.pdf

Let's check the score from here and analyze it.
I think it could be very beneficial to the OP's question, "What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?"

View attachment 2951038

I see a mix of flat and natural 6ths and 7ths (D, D#, E and E# are all present) which is highly typical of Bach's minor key compositions. I think it would be a stretch to call this composition "modal." It is "tonal in the key of F# minor" in my opinion.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I see a mix of flat and natural 6ths and 7ths (D, D#, E and E# are all present) which is highly typical of Bach's minor key compositions. I think it would be a stretch to call this composition "modal." It is "tonal in the key of F# minor" in my opinion.

I doubt that it's a good idea to discuss Bach's modal "issues" in this thread where so many commentators are trying to figure out "What notes would I play if I were going to play the Dorian mode of the Natural Minor scale in G?", or where we have so many commentators are having too "nebulous and floating" vision of the term, KEY, but I could be wrong as always...

For those who are interesting, I'd like to recommend the following (long) read (dissertation),
"J.S. Bach's Modal Compositional practice in the Corale Preludes..."
from here.
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Whousedtoplay]

There's so much pick'n'mix of musical terms, definitions and concepts going on I really don't know where to start!

And that is our problem. Without learning and understanding the basic fundamentals of Modes (with other terms of Music Theory/Harmony), that chaotic "pick'n'mix" verbiage becomes just another emotionally-charged "storm in the teacup", and leads the thread to its final resting place, "Thread is closed".

but I think I'll sit this one out.

Sorry to hear it, but I completely understand your reason/s.

 

[inanimate_carb]

This is a one-person conversation at this point, predictably with the same serial offender.

Anybody who overdiscusses modes to this degree does not fully understand or have practical experience with how modes really work, academically or on a stage.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

(Once again that "serial offender".)

In this thread, several respectful TB members have expressed their dissatisfaction with the Lydian Mode.

I'd like - for those "Lydian-no-Sayers" - to listen to a beautiful composition (Motet ) written in Lydian Mode, and explain to me what's wrong with Lydian mode.
Also, I've found a Youtube video with notes written. Maybe somebody could explain how to "recognize" that bad Lydian Mode.


P.S. Please be careful, don't "gaze" too long into Lydian..."