Choosing a "clean" preamp/DI

[CassiusRegular]

So umm... what do you do in this situation?

Well, you are f***ed ‍

I'm tend to be very easy and accommodating with love sound engineer, but your description of both the venue and the guy are really grim (an him a bit of a b*llend

 

[amper]

if only SWR had lasted long enough to make a Redhead preamp pedal… but that's just me dreaming.

The solid state side of my SWR Interstellar Overdrive had such a great sound. TBPH, I actually liked it better than the tube preamp side of it.

 

[amper]

Soooo, sitrep with a little update that topples the whole thing.

I've spoken with a couple of sound guys here as well as other gigging bassists and, apparently, it's grim news.
Dudes never get a straight DI out of anyone's equipment. They have their own box that gets an amp signal and that's it. They rarely -if ever- blend it with a mic from the amp, which, in most cases, is either some SVT something (non tube) that's farty at best and half the features just plain don't work, or some kind of older GK model with somewhat similar shortcomings. The most popular venue has an 8x10 while a couple of others one 4x10. In some cases, you might only get a 1x15. I vividly remember that 8x10 and I can safely say it's half dead.
So, all in all, a crapshoot.

Main takeaway from this is the fact that they insist on using their own DI and flat out refuse to use the player's, which means a preamp box would be useless if I have to use it in front of an amp.
Come to think of it, the last time I played there myself (right before the whole 2020 thing started), the sound guy refused get the DI from my unit and neither could I go through the FX loop to bypass the amp's preamp because, apparently, it was one of those things that didn't work (???). Thing is, I tried regardless and it really didn't. How, I don't know. Which meant I had to disable cab sims and make adjustments that made me sound... well, let's just say less than stellar.

Point is, I can't send my own DI out, so that renders the whole plan scrapped.

Only thing they'll allow is for you to use your own amp but I can neither afford one right now, nor can I haul one (spinal issues) even if I did. The cab, I mean, I can carry a small, lightweight SS amp. I think!

So umm... what do you do in this situation?

I've been an audio engineer longer than I've been gigging, and I've been gigging longer than I've played bass.

"Sound guys" can be real asholes. Their job is not to tell you what you can and cannot do, their job is to project *your sound* into the audience.

I have over 30 years of pro audio engineering experience, and I would never tell you what equipment you can or cannot use, because I am also a musician and more importantly, a professional audio engineer, not a neckbearded slob/petty tyrant. I went to university for Lighting & Sound Design at a global Top 5 school for Theatre.

When you are the performer, you are the talent, and the "sound guy" is nothing more than the hired help, your servant. Feel free to put "sound guys" in their place.

Then only time I will ever insist on doing things my way as an audio engineer is if I judge your equipment to be electrically or mechanically unsafe and a potential source of damage to the PA system. That would be a pretty extraordinary circumstance.

My preference is to take the bass DI from whatever point will deliver to my PA the best representation of *your sound*, not my personal interpretation of "what bass should sound like". This is usually the DI from your stage amp, but it can also be a DI box in front of your amp, or it can be a DI output on your pedalboard, depending on circumstances.

To be fair, if you don't have a particularly characteristic tone, I can plug you into a Countryman Type 85 direct box and make you sound like a demigod, if not an actual god. I'm that good.

I'm building a new bass pedalboard right now, and it's going to have as it's primary tone generator a DSM & Humboldt Simplifier Bass Station. The intent is to build a direct-to-PA/recording desk fly rig, and there really wouldn't be any point of taking the PA signal from anywhere but the Simplifier, the last device in the signal chain.

Any "sound guy" who has a problem with that will be standing on an empty stage trying to explain to the audience why there is no entertainment. A professional audio engineer won't think to do anything else.

I've played a lot of gigs in my life, from poopy dive bars to medium size theatres, like the House of Rock, and never once have I ever had an argument with a real pro. "Sound guys", well, they are a basement dwelling subculture, and unfortunately they can be problematic, but stick to your guns—you are the performer, not they.

 

[amper]

The truth of live sound for bass and recording is that miking cabinets is the exception, not the rule. It's perhaps been revived a little in recent years, due to the current fashionability of using distortion on bass, which requires a good filter (like a cabinet) to tame the harshness, but in most venues, a DI signal is going to result in superior quality, with the amps and cabs left to provide stage monitoring.

There is one local venue I've worked that has a bass backline of an ok 4x10 cab (can't remember what brand) and a beat-up old Hartke head. The rig sounds OK, but it's A) way too much for the room* as it is, and 2) the switches and connectors on the head are a bit dodgy, so when I run the PA there, I prefer to put my Countryman Type 85 before the amp, and work out a good bass tone from the Midas 32 channel digital console, which gives me an amazing array of eq and compression tools on each and every channel.

However, if a bassist comes in with their own rig, I will happily plug into the DI output of their amp or wherever they need me to take their signal from, to get *their sound*, provided their equipment is in good repair.

And if I need to, I can also mic their cab. Usually, I'll use a Shure Beta 52A combined with a Shure Beta 57A.

*the room itself also has some issues with standing waves that the venue really needs to mitigate. In particular, there a pronounced hump in the bass response right where the console booth is located, which makes mixing a real pain in the patootie, because I have to keep stepping out into the house to get a sense of what it really sounds like, and it can be fatiguing to sit in that booth and be assaulted by that for a night. But, because of the flexibility of the Midas console, it's also easier for me to apply a high pass filter to the bass signal rather than relying on each musician not to screw up the amp settings in a room they've never played before. Regardless, it's still my job as engineer to make them sound good, not to lord (or lady?) my position over them.

 

[hbabels]

I sooo agree with @amper 's above post. My "day job" is as a pro audio engineer and I agree the job is what's the best way to project the bands sound to the crowd / recording !!! I happy yo use their provided gear and only what to bypass it if there is problem with it not working correctly etc… if I think I have a better option I may offer or discuss it with artist but in the end I want them to be happy and be able to provide a good sound for the audience. I understand why a lot of audio engineers and "sound guys" like to stick to gear they know works / sounds a certain way but professionals will try to make all reasonable accommodations to the artist based in gear / time available. A lot of hacks will not unfortunately.
If you're dealing with a lot of "sound guy's" first off I'm sorry for you.
2nd I'd say your plan is not hosed you just need a preamp pedal that lets gou shape the tone the way you like it and can interface with provided DI's well. A lot of the ones with cab sims the sim only goes to the xlr but I think some also give you the option to 1/4" out which you can then plug into whatever DI they want to use at the venue. Also if your sound is mainly clean a cab sim isn't vital so there are a lot of preamp pedals that can give you some good time shaping that will translate to FOH.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post GK Plex is quite good I owned one a while back and while I ultimately sold it for other options it could get a lot of great tones. Also while you tube demos are useful they're useful only to a degree. So much varies based on your instruments and technique etc. it would really be to your benefit to try as many yourself as you can. I know that's not always easy depending on your location etc but try what you can and / or buy from a place with a good return policy.

 

[Gothic]

I'm with you guys that the sound guy should be one to accomodate the players but, sadly, it just doesn't work that way and picking a fight with those effers is bound to give at least unsatisfactory results when it comes time for the actual show. Ask me how I know... It almost came to blows while on a gig with one of them that kept turning me down for no good reason.

The situation cannot be changed, sadly. Whatever the right or correct thing is, they just don't care. And I doubt they're actual "sound" guys too but, even if they are, they don't seem to care much.

So, to minimize conflict, I'm going to need a pedal that sounds good going in front of an amp as well. My only requirement is to have my tone easily accessible on anything I play.
As for cab sims, I don't use full on distortion but I do use overdrive on a lot of stuff. Still, by overdrive I mean a light grit. Anything more, it's annoying (for me).

Honestly, at this point, considering the Sansamp stuff don't really do it for me, I'm surprisingly considering a darkglass. I've gone out and tried the AΩ pedal (the "plain" one) as well as the newer ultra with the EQ. I did not expect to like them much but I found that if I keep the dirt settings low, these things actually sound quite good and can give that light drive I like as well.
I much preferred the upscale model, honestly. Not so much for the EQ but I found the cab sim did really make a difference.

So, at this point, I'm kinda rethinking the whole thing. I do like the DG AΩ Ultra V2 but it costs 470 euros and I'll have to wait a while until I can afford it! But the thing is, at that price point, I can also go for the new Mesa DI+, which is equally pricy (pretty much the same, actually). That I can only find on reverb, though...
But considering what they cost, I'm thinking whether it would be wiser to ditch them and go for an amp head instead.

Pros are that I'll still have my own sound wherever I might play since they take a DI out from the amp.

Cons are they'll certainly be bigger and heavier and, since I both can't afford or carry my own cab, I'll still have to use whatever's available.
And I don't really know how good their DI's really are. At least compared to the pedals.

For clarification, when it comes to amps I'm thinking at least a 500w, SS. My choices at this point would probably be the Rumble 800 head or the DG ΑΩ 500. There are also the EBS Reidmars (502 & 750). Can't swing the bigger stuff.

So, would it be better to wait a bit more and get a higher price preamp pedal? And to that, would it be even better to wait a lot more to get a head or would I be hitting the point of diminishing returns there?

 

[Gothic]

By the way, here's what the closest thing I got to an "ideal" tone. Pretty much every tone he gets in the whole album is spot on. It's got some grit but none of that fizzy/fuzzy stuff that tends to color and "wash out" the D&G too much. And the clean parts are articulate but quite warm (I'd have preferred even a tarm warmer/fuller at times).

And yes, I'm aware this is recorded, mixed and produced but yeah, you get the point...

 

[Al Kraft]

If you're on a budget and need a reliable, relatively clean preamp, the MXR M80 or M81 are worth a look IMO.

 

[GTHintz]

By the way, here's what the closest thing I got to an "ideal" tone. Pretty much every tone he gets in the whole album is spot on. It's got some grit but none of that fizzy/fuzzy stuff that tends to color and "wash out" the D&G too much. And the clean parts are articulate but quite warm (I'd have preferred even a tarm warmer/fuller at times).

And yes, I'm aware this is recorded, mixed and produced but yeah, you get the point...

Cool album. I'm actually getting a early 90's rush vibe here. So honestly that bass tone is basically clean but his strings are really new and his mids are not scooped. It's just a great do anything kinda tone. Sounds like a jazz bass. He's probably using a sans amp or maybe a trace Elliot head and ampeg svt cab. Or probably a sim since who knows these days there's so many plug ins.

 

[GTHintz]

found this on YouTube. Oliver Holtzwarth who plays bass on the album. Assuming it's the same bass definitely fender but I like what he did with the music man in the rear. That's what I was going to do with my old precision bass. Lol but anyway that definitely explains a lot of the grit. It's in the nature of that set up to have great punch and grit even without any distortion or fuzz.

 

[Thumpinshelton]

Here is my supper clean tone setup. The DB925 and Neve DI are tonal heaven IMHO.....I love this combo.

 

[bassjam]

I'll toss another vote in for the MXR M81. Clean, but not sterile. I use one quite a bit, and add a Darkglass Vintage Microtubes for a bit of breakup. Also throw a Spaceman Saturn IV in the rig quite a bit.

I love the DI route as mentioned above also- I have a Khan and love it.

I also have a Sans Amp BDDI V2…. I didn't bond with the earlier versions, but to my ear, the V2 just works for me… And the Mid control is great. The blend control seems to be the trick to that pedal. All the way down it's very clean and little to no "Sans Amp" tone… but anytime I use it, I start at about 8 O'clock and dial left until I like it.

Love the VTDI also….

 

[DavidEdenAria]

I've been using a WTDI for a few years now. That's an Eden DI pedal with a built-in Eden WT preamp. The sound you describe is very much the sound it delivers. I have a few Eden amps and this DI pedal is both dead-quiet and it sounds just as warm as my big 800-watt Eden amp with its hybrid preamp. I paid $149 for mine and now they seem to go for around $159 to $179. It absolutely is the best $149 I ever spent.

I got mine because we played a small brewpub about 40 to 45 times a year and they wouldn't let me bring in my 410 cab. Rather they insisted I use their little Peavey 112 combo. I just couldn't get the sound I wanted out of that combo, so I bought the WTDI and plugged it into the Peavey's effects-return. Lo and behold that little Peavey now sounded like an Eden amp! I've since used it with all kinds of backlines: GK, acoustic, Ampeg, Markbass, etc. and I've made all of them sound like an Eden amp.

I've also used it numerous times direct to FOH and used it at a professional recording studio in Seattle in 2019. I was amazed at the sound of my raw track as were the engineer and owner. They had me listen to the raw recording after our 3-hour session and said, "that's exactly as you sent it to me. We have not adjusted EQ at all nor have we put any compression on it. Just a Great sound!" I ran it flat with a little boost in the low-mids at 500Hz with my passive Jazz.

Here's a shot of it:
View attachment 4389568
It has the XLR out and 1/4" out on the left; bass, mid, and treble EQ on top row with both a bass boost button and mid-shift button. The bass boost allows you to boost the bass without boosting treble or cutting the mids. The mid-shift allows you to adjust the low-mids centered at 500Hz or the High-mids centered at 2KHz - one or the other not both at once.

On the bottom row you have gain to adjust strength of the input signal, but unfortunately no set light. If you listen closely when setting the gain for your bass, you can hear when it reaches the "sweet spot". The Enhance boosts the bass and treble and scoops the mids. It's very easy to dial yourself into oblivion if you run this much above 9 o'clock because you really need those low-mids to give you definition and presence in the mix. The compressor is a simple one control effect and as you dial it up it affects both the threshold and the ratio. I only use it on one song we play (Time After Time by Cyndi Lauper) but works well. Finally is the master, which controls the over all signal. I usually run it around 11 or 12 o'clock but if going into an FOH be sure to tell tech that you can adjust the level if he needs you to. Input is on the right side and it also has a bypass stomp if you want to use it for some reason.

That's a really nice DI with simple but very musical preamp. The sound is clean, clear, warm,and articulate and it comes with its own power supply (15v). This has a Magic Ear chip (THAT4301 if I recall correctly) that supplies the warmth among other things. The warmth is the same as I get out of my big Eden WT500/800 amp, which has a hybrid preamp (uses a tube for warmth). Definitely worth a look!

As you've probably read, i am a big Eden fan (though i use a variety of cabs with my Metro) and this is high on my list for sure.

I dont however use the comp on my Metro (actually a Japan Yamaha comp) but need to revisit the Eden comp....im planning on buying a MarkBass comp but i think.

 

[akizh]

I'll vote for VTDI for it's cost and versatile.
It can do really fat and warm clean sound to good mild drive. Great aggressive rock drive is available but not for me.

Another candidate is Marleaux Tonewerk. It's really really good clean sounding preamp. It slightly cut the muddy lows and push the mids subtly, and still maintains all the tones and characters of your basses well. And the four band EQ with 3 freqs selection on each band is really versatile and useful. If you really like the natural sound of your bass and just need some eq to fix some frequency to compensate the room or venue, Tonewerk will do a good job.
The cons is that it doesn't have ground lift, which sometimes can be noisy with other pedals.

 

[Zbysek]

I'll vote for VTDI for it's cost and versatile.
It can do really fat and warm clean sound to good mild drive. Great aggressive rock drive is available but not for me.

Another candidate is Marleaux Tonewerk. It's really really good clean sounding preamp. It slightly cut the muddy lows and push the mids subtly, and still maintains all the tones and characters of your basses well. And the four band EQ with 3 freqs selection on each band is really versatile and useful. If you really like the natural sound of your bass and just need some eq to fix some frequency to compensate the room or venue, Tonewerk will do a good job.
The cons is that it doesn't have ground lift, which sometimes can be noisy with other pedals.

I am surprised to read that VTDI can do drive...

 

[akizh]

I am surprised to read that VTDI can do drive...

It definitely can. It got a wide range on the drive knob. The character knob also affects the gain stage, turning it up will give you more gain, so you can get overdriven tone easily.

 

[Zbysek]

It definitely can. It got a wide range on the drive knob. The character knob also affects the gain stage, turning it up will give you more gain, so you can get overdriven tone easily.

Oh, you mean VT Bass DI from Tech21.

I thought you meant Khan VTDI...

 

[Scotty4string]

I have a MXR m81. It's a very good clean preamp/di. Nice eq. Makes things sound better just having it in the chain, even when it's poopie off.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

As you've probably read, i am a big Eden fan (though i use a variety of cabs with my Metro) and this is high on my list for sure.

I dont however use the comp on my Metro (actually a Japan Yamaha comp) but need to revisit the Eden comp....im planning on buying a MarkBass comp but i think.

Hi David, I'm not a fan of the auto-compressor on most of the WT series amps. It's just too harsh for me except for slap. However the auto compressor on their new class D amps works just great. Had to use it one night when my power clipping light came on (we were too loud for this small venue) and after trying a couple of other things I turned it on and turned up the gain a bit, which forces it to engage sooner - like a threshold control. It was just great. I didn't notice any loss of dynamics or attack and it engaged smoothly and evenly to where I couldn't tell by listening when it was engaged and when it wasn't. But that power clipping light stopped flashing entirely. I sounded good and was loud enough to be heard and that clipping light never came back on. I was impressed.

As I mentioned my WTDI has the one adjustable compressor control. It also works well though I use it more for effect as opposed to stop clipping because of course...it's a preamp not an amp. There are only a couple of songs where I'll use it, but it sounds good when I do.

 

[frostyman1962]

Without a ton of explination I'd say get a clean DI box and add a great preamp latter. I'm a huge fan of the Rupert Neve RNDI. It goes for 300 bucks brand new. Its built like a Tank and dead quite.
I've heard the KHAN VTDI is an amazing DI as well.
I added an Arkham Oracle Preamp with RNDI. It's really fantastic gear in my opinion and super clean.