Choosing which mode to use over a chord

[ics1974]

Jesus, people, he's trying to learn something new. Music is worth learning and skills and knowledge are worth the effort to acquire. Is it so difficult to give a straight answer to a simple question?



The short answer is yes, you can. The chord tones in A minor (just the triad) are A, C, and E, and since all of the minor modes (dorian, aeolian, phrygian) contain those notes, they are all fair game. You may consider using the non-chord tones as passing tones in this case.

The slightly longer answer - yes, you can, but be aware that dwelling on the non-chord tones can imply a different chord. (For example - if you dwell on the F note in A aeolian while an A minor triad is playing, the implied chord is actually an F major 7th - but if you do that with an F# from A dorian, you imply an F# half diminished chord. The register in which you play the note will determine the inversion of the chord.) This is okay to do if you use your ears and know how/when to do it.

An addition to the slightly longer answer - as you begin to encounter chords with more than three notes (tetrads, pentads), you'll begin to find that the number of "correct" modes to choose from starts to get smaller. To use the example above, F major 7th (let's use the first inversion - so instead of ordering it F, A, C, E, we have A, C, E, F, also known as an A minor 6th) has four notes - A aeolian and A phrygian share the same chord tones, but A dorian does not due to the F#. It's something to think about once you get to that point.

The TLR answer to your original question: Yes. You are correct. If a mode contains the chord tones, go wild.

Good luck!

This answers my question perfectly. Thanks

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This is exactly what I want to accomplish. I was hoping I could use the modes as a tool to know which non chord tones I can add in for fills. If I don't think scales then all I see is chord tones and chromatic notes

From
Prof. Dmitri Tymoczko
Handout 1 (2010)

(As a starting point)

 

[Groove Master]

Modes are a waste of time because they do not outline harmony. They are just a sequence of half and whole steps. You shouldn't be looking at a chord and asking yourself "what mode should I play" - you should be looking at a chord and asking yourself "what are the chord tones for this chord" and "how can I make these chord tones lead smoothly to the next chord".

This is sooooo wrong. The musician that should know the most his/her modes is the bass player because we are the foundation of the harmony and too many wrong notes in the bass parts and the music is falling apart....

 

[ics1974]

To go short, a chord is related to a key center or tonality because usually chords do have a function within a key. As for your example C going to Amin the obvious answer is A Aeolian BUT it also depends on where the A min is going after. If it goes to D min then you know that the Aeolian mode works but if the D chord is a D7 then you can play a A Dorian. So there is always two sides: where it is coming from and where it is going after.

Hope this helps.

good point

 

[Koshchei]

I think he meant chord, not scale...

Right, but the scale decides the modes and the colour that the other voices can get away with. If you're going to throw the 7th in as a chord tone on that Amin, is it maj7 or min7? Based on that, this will open up other notes for the other voices to play... for example, the next chord is a Dmin: Depending on which scale you're implying that the Amin belongs to, that D could be a straight dorian, a dorian #4 (harmonic), or a mixolydian #11 (melodic), which would add some spice if the guitarist plays the major third an octave up.

Lots of possibilities for creating and resolving tension in an otherwise super-banal chord progression.

 

[Mushroo]

This is exactly what I want to accomplish. I was hoping I could use the modes as a tool to know which non chord tones I can add in for fills. If I don't think scales then all I see is chord tones and chromatic notes

Here are two dirt-simple methods you could try, obviously there is no "one size fits all" and there will be exceptions.

Method 1: You don't have to invent fills from scratch out of your imagination! Listen to your favorite records. Learn fills from your favorite players. "Borrow" their musical ideas. Every genre has its standard "vocabulary." For example if you are a blues player, you can learn 101 famous blues licks and riffs (like the classic "turnarounds" C-Bb-A-Ab-G or C-E-F-F#-G), to build vocabulary for creating your blues fills. If you are a rock player then study rock fills. If you are a country player then study country fills. etc.

Method 2: Play the chord tones, and then if you want to fill in some non-chord tones, use the notes of the key you're playing in. For example if you are playing in A Minor and there is an E7 chord, you could combine the notes of the E7 chord (E-G#-B-D) with some passing or neighbor notes from the A Minor scale (F-A-C) to create a fill using some permutation of the notes E-F-G#-A-B-C-D-E (which is known as the A Harmonic Minor scale).

 

[jdh3000]

I am learning my modes and now I am looking to start using them in my playing mainly for fills and riffs.
My question is about choosing what mode to use over a given chord.
For example say I am in the key of C and the Am chord is playing. I – vi – IV – V (C – Am – F – G)
I definitely know that I can use A aeolian but could I also use A dorian or A phrygian over the Am chord? They all have the chord tones in Am but I am not sure if you can choose a mode from a different key like A dorian or A phrygian?

I would try to be more experimental and less analytical about the notes.
Achieving a certain sound, such as in jazz, you may switch from playing one mode to another and and then to arpeggios.
Modes/scales are fine, but think of them as a road map, not the road itself.
It's usually not the notes as much as it is how you play the notes.

For ins, if one wishes to play jazz, just learning modes is only a fraction of the job, listening to and soaking up HOW those notes are played will get you to where you want to go.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Right, but the scale decides the modes and the colour that the other voices can get away with. If you're going to throw the 7th in as a chord tone on that Amin, is it maj7 or min7? Based on that, this will open up other notes for the other voices to play... for example, the next chord is a Dmin: Depending on which scale you're implying that the Amin belongs to, that D could be a straight dorian, a dorian #4 (harmonic), or a mixolydian #11 (melodic), which would add some spice if the guitarist plays the major third an octave up.

Lots of possibilities for creating and resolving tension in an otherwise super-banal chord progression.

Please, read the post# 42, What makes music sound good?

 

[hennessybass]

It depends what everyone else is playing, in what octave they're playing it, and what the musical context is.

This gets to the heart of the matter for me. -- CONTEXT --

I'm all for learning, understanding, and increasing knowledge, but you have to let the song determine what you need to be doing as a bass player. A basic progression written on paper with no other context is kind of tough to work with.

Music is a conversation. When you signed up to make music, you signed up to play a role - what kind of music are you making over that progression and what's your part of the whole. What are you looking to accomplish musically?

If the goal is just learning, understanding, and increasing knowledge (in an academic sense), then the answer is play all the modes over all the chords so that you can internalize all those sounds, good and bad (or inside and outside, as the cats say).

 

[Malcolm35]

OK what chords should we put in our chord vamp? The tonic chord, i.e. If you are going to use C Dorian then Cm7 is your tonic and needs to be in the vamp. If we are going to use the Dorian mode the signature note of Dorian is the natural 6. So the second chord in the vamp should have a natural 6 in it's make up.

Second vamping then needs the note A in it's makeup. Am7 or F7 have an A in their makeup - your choice....
c dorian vamping chords - Bing video

 

[Max Bogosity]

This is exactly what I want to accomplish. I was hoping I could use the modes as a tool to know which non chord tones I can add in for fills. If I don't think scales then all I see is chord tones and chromatic notes

Any mode that fits the chord is *technically* fair game, but it’s going to sound weird if, for example, you decide to play Phrygian over the Am and hit Bb just as the singer/keyboard/guitar player hits a B. But if everyone else is going the same way, it’ll be fine.

If you don’t know what everyone else is going to do, ‘chord tones and chromatic passing tones’ is a safer approach.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Lots of possibilities for creating and resolving tension in an otherwise super-banal chord progression.

One of my biggest pet-peeves is when we have a simple song to play for the children (it's a gig) but some ... musician starts adding any kind of notes/sounds, etc...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

E-F-G#-A-B-C-D-E (which is known as the A Harmonic Minor scale).

Could we have the A Melodic (Jazz) scale?

 

[Koshchei]

One of my biggest pet-peeves is when we have a simple song to play for the children (it's a gig) but some ... musician starts adding any kind of notes/sounds, etc...

I think your problem is different from the one I'm describing. A musician going rogue is one thing, whereas an ensemble exploring the limits of a progression in a context where it's expected is another. I appreciate your musical knowledge, but I don't think that we play music for the same reason. Which is fine.

 

[Koshchei]

Could we have the A Melodic (Jazz) scale?

It'd rub on the D minor if you let the major and minor thirds get too close, but yes, you could swing it if the ensemble had it figured out in advance or knew it was coming.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think your problem is different from the one I'm describing.

P.S. My problem is - I have three cats that I need to feed, groom, clean their kitty litters, take to the vet, etc...

Discussing MODES at TB is not(!) my problem.

 

[Mushroo]

Could we have the A Melodic (Jazz) scale?

Definitely! I will leave it to you, to explain that one to the OP.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Definitely! I will leave it to you, to explain that one to the OP.

I think I've overspent my time in this thread; therefore, I just sign off with the following picture.
That "beautiful" car in the picture - It's our parent scale, C major - that's what the designer/songwriter intended.

And of course, the bass player in the picture will make that car - "an otherwise super-banal chord progression" - sound updated, rejuvenated, modernized, etc...

 

[Koshchei]

Please, read the post# 42, What makes music sound good?

Per the handout, "...we cannot answer this question absolutely".

My ear is open enough that I don't hear music in terms of "good" or "bad", or "consonant" or "dissonant" anymore - I hear stability/instability, where any given note can exist against its context for a certain amount of time before wanting to become something else. These notes don't have to conform to to any discrete scale, temper, or tonality either - if I need to move up a full tone in the span of three rhythmic intervals, I'm happy to divide it into a quarter tone and two 3/8th's of a tone if it sounds good - to my ear, it kinda does, but this is far outside the OP's question.

I'll just leave this incredible example of using microtonality to jump around between Just Intonation and 12TET:



I think I'm done here too I'm too far down the rabbit hole.

 

[consectaneus]

• better musicians than I

That is great. I look forward to watching more of his lectures. His ideas accord with another well known teacher and musician I can think of, and no doubt many others as well. I credit the sort of music they were listening to, and the roots of that music as well. These "cats" were just steeped in melody in a way it is hard for us of succeeding generations to fathom. And they just listened, copied, played and repeated umpteen hundred times until the language became a part of them. That might have been to a small degree easier to do when they lived and breathed in that milieu and time.

But anyway, it's interesting that his ideas are the ones slowly predominating in my mind as I hear it enough, start to understand it and a consensus builds that I may be on the right track.