Choosing which mode to use over a chord

[ics1974]

I am learning my modes and now I am looking to start using them in my playing mainly for fills and riffs.
My question is about choosing what mode to use over a given chord.
For example say I am in the key of C and the Am chord is playing. I – vi – IV – V (C – Am – F – G)
I definitely know that I can use A aeolian but could I also use A dorian or A phrygian over the Am chord? They all have the chord tones in Am but I am not sure if you can choose a mode from a different key like A dorian or A phrygian?

 

[Mushroo]

You don't need "modes" to play a diatonic progression like C - Amin - F - G.

It's all just C Major. Don't overthink it!

(But yes, if you want your playing to sound "jazzy" or "outside" then you can try experimenting with non-diatonic notes outside the key of C Major, like Bb or F#. Depending on the song and the musicians you're playing with, it might sound good. Try it and see if you like it!)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

could I also use A dorian or A phrygian over the Am chord?

Check the difference.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It's all just C Major. Don't overthink it!

Why not.

Let's say, with C ionian,
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"Note that the 4th/11th scale degree of the Ionian mode is an “avoid note.” This is because the major third clashes with the perfect fourth (minor second interval). By the same token, the major third clashes with the eleventh (flat ninth interval)."

Would you try to avoid that 4th note with the F or G chord in the OP's example?

 

[Mushroo]

Why not.

Let's say, with C ionian,
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"Note that the 4th/11th scale degree of the Ionian mode is an “avoid note.” This is because the major third clashes with the perfect fourth (minor second interval). By the same token, the major third clashes with the eleventh (flat ninth interval)."

Would you try to avoid that 4th note with the F or G chord in the OP's example?

I don't know what you mean by "Ionian mode" in this case? Seems like a textbook example of "C Major" to me (no need to over-complicate it).

But to answer your question, my approach would be to listen to famous songs that use I - vi - IV - V progressions, and study what the original bass players played on these classic hits. My teacher calls this "building musical vocabulary."

One "simple, foolproof" formula might be to play C - E - G for the C chord, A - C - E for the Amin chord, F - A - C for the F chord, and G - B - D for the G chord. Depending on the song, the genre, and the other musicians in the band, that simple-foolproof formula might sound great, or it might sound kind of "square." Try it and see if you like it!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I don't know what you mean by "Ionian mode" in this case? Seems like a textbook example of "C Major" to me (no need to over-complicate it).

But to answer your question, my approach would be to listen to famous songs that use I - vi - IV - V progressions, and study what the original bass players played on these classic hits. My teacher calls this "building musical vocabulary."

One "simple, foolproof" formula might be to play C - E - G for the C chord, A - C - E for the Amin chord, F - A - C for the F chord, and G - B - D for the G chord. Depending on the song, the genre, and the other musicians in the band, that simple-foolproof formula might sound great, or it might sound kind of "square." Try it and see if you like it!

If Mushroo does not understand my comment, it's time to go.

 

[CallMeAl]

My first thought is an F#, that Would give you a nice descent to the F in the next chord. But I wouldn’t really be thinking “I’m in Dorian here” just “I’m gonna use a b2 of the next chord.”

I think it’s more about where you’re going with the idea, how you’re resolving the tension; than it is about what mode you’re in

EDIT cause this is about adding tension. That progression is very “vanilla.” You could jam on C major the whole time, and make your tension with rhythm and repetition; or you can make your tension harmonically/chromatically- and then you have to think about how to resolve it.

 

[Malcolm35]

I am learning my modes and now I am looking to start using them in my playing mainly for fills and riffs.
My question is about choosing what mode to use over a given chord.
For example say I am in the key of C and the Am chord is playing. I – vi – IV – V (C – Am – F – G)
I definitely know that I can use A aeolian but could I also use A dorian or A phrygian over the Am chord? They all have the chord tones in Am but I am not sure if you can choose a mode from a different key like A dorian or A phrygian?

Mushroo hit it on the head. Play a mode over a vamping chord progression, not over a resolving chord progression. Modal does not resolve, but drones on so the modal sound can bevelop. Google modal harmony.

Instead of choosing a specific mode to use over a specific chord --- choose the mode that will give the mood you want, then use the chord vamp that will let that mood developed. Keep that vamp going with your mode that gives the mood you want - until you need to change moods. How many times does a song change moods? The Google modal harmony link will explain this better than I have.

Here are the moods of the seven major modes.
Choose the key you want to use, i.e. C, D, E, F, etc.
The following is the Parallel method of looking at modes where the key stays the same and the notes change.

• Ionian, same as the major scale R-2-3-4-5-6-7 -- Happy up beat.
• Lydian, Using the major scale and sharping the 4. Gets Lydian, however it's sound is so much like Ionian I also sharp the 7th, making it Lydian Dominant to move it further away from Ionian. This gives a much different sound. I'll let you name the sound. To me it's kinda 1/2 way between Ionian and Mixolydian.
• Mixolydian, gives a Latin sound.
• 
  
• OK that takes care of the major modes now for the minor modes of the major scale.
• 
  
• Aeolian - same as the natural minor scale R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 -- some say sad. I hear minor more than sad.
• Phrygian - use the natural minor scale and flat the 2. I hear a Middle Eastern sound.
• Dorian - use the natural minor scale and sharp the b6 to a natural 6. An attractive minor sound. IF I'm going for a minor modal sound -- Dorian is my normal choice.
• Locrian - use the natural minor scale and flat the 2 and 5. Gives a dark and tense mood.

As each mode has a mood, playing a mode over each specific chord and changing the mood several times in a song is not the way to go. Pick a mood, then use that mode along with the chord vamp that will allow the modal mood to be heard. If you play your mode over a resolving chord progression (V-I) the tonal center of the progression will probably not let the modal sound cut through. I look upon this as turning a mode into just another scale -- all your modal efforts have been wasted because the modal sound will be drowned out by the tonal center of the chord progression. With out the modal vamp under the mode you are playing tonal. Tonal resolves to the tonic I chord. Modal drones on so the modal mood can develop. This is a long story; Google Modal Harmony.

Happy Trails.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My first thought is an F#, that Would give you a nice descent to the F in the next chord. But I wouldn’t really be thinking “I’m in Dorian here” just “I’m gonna use a b2 of the next chord.”

you can make your tension harmonically/chromatically- and then you have to think about how to resolve it.

Your home assignment No1.

Figure out/learn about the difference between the diatonic notes from a/any MODE and chromatic/passing/etc... ones.

 

[ics1974]

ok looks like I need to re-think how to apply the modes then

 

[Mushroo]

ok looks like I need to re-think how to apply the modes then

My advice when learning a new concept is, always bring it back around to songs that you know and love.

Can you think of a famous song that has a "modal" sound to your ear?

 

[ics1974]

So what about what he is talking about. This is what I was getting at but my questions was regarding using other modes that have the same chord tones.

 

[SteveCS]

... Modal does not resolve, but drones on so the modal sound can bevelop.
...

Not quite. Modal music resolves melodically as opposed to tonal music that moves and resolves harmonically.

 

[Mushroo]

So what about what he is talking about. This is what I was getting at but my questions was regarding using other modes that have the same chord tones.

Basically he is demonstrating how you can use different permutations of the notes G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G to create music that sounds "diatonic" or "inside the key" of G Major.

 

[consectaneus]

The guy in the video gets to the subject at hand at 8:45. Before that he spends a lot time explaining how chords are built. In the end his demo is a I-V progression G to D featuring the dominant 7 in the D with a little scale lick back to the G. That really doesn't answer the question. I don't consider a riff using a 1-3-5 scale on the I chord to something with a flatted 7 on the V to be modal playing. That's called playing the bass. Anyone who plays western music on the bass plays a dominant 7 and a minor 3 for a minor chord.

I have questions about this too. I've even looked up modal song examples. Norwegian Wood was said to be in Mixolydian, but read a pretty good analysis which charts the notes from B to B. I don't know why it isn't B Dorian. The verse melody contains every note of B Dorian. Pretty darn good study to play around with. But it's melody! And that's what I'm finding so far. Modes are great for playing single note melodies on the bass.

 

[mambo4]

Am but I am not sure if you can choose a mode from a different key like A dorian or A phrygian?

some brief points

• any mode that shares the chord tones can work, but:
• the appropriateness of any non-chord tone choices depends mostly on:
  • The style of music (study your genre)
  • The melody being supported (don't clash)
    
  • the previous and next chord (voice leading)
• switching modes with each new chord is not how it's typically done
• What to play over changes is not solved by finding the right scale to noodle in
• chord scale formulas are frowned upon by better musicians than I

Let harmony, style, and your own musical vocabulary be your foundation for note choice.
because chord tones will always work, you can get a lot of mileage by just winging the in between notes and listening.
Build your musical vocabulary based on the sounds you want to hear, not chord/mode formulas.

 

[Darth_Linux]

Modes are a waste of time because they do not outline harmony. They are just a sequence of half and whole steps. You shouldn't be looking at a chord and asking yourself "what mode should I play" - you should be looking at a chord and asking yourself "what are the chord tones for this chord" and "how can I make these chord tones lead smoothly to the next chord".

 

[Rib 13]

I am learning my modes and now I am looking to start using them in my playing mainly for fills and riffs.
My question is about choosing what mode to use over a given chord.
For example say I am in the key of C and the Am chord is playing. I – vi – IV – V (C – Am – F – G)
I definitely know that I can use A aeolian but could I also use A dorian or A phrygian over the Am chord? They all have the chord tones in Am but I am not sure if you can choose a mode from a different key like A dorian or A phrygian?

Yes....and No.........First, the song would have to be written diatonically perfect to apply that logic but sometimes you want an accidental to create a certain tension even if it is.....Then there are plenty of songs not written diatonically accurate....... Personally, I let each chord dictate what I will apply to it by what it is constructed of and let diatonic modes as a moveable form orbit around each and every chord as a transparent non-committal map (ex. If a song goes DMaj7 to Cmaj7, I may apply Ionian to both chords or Lydian to both chords depending on the song itself)....but, most importantly, I will let my ears ( which include the mind's ear) to find the note choices for the phrases or figures I want to play.....often, they aren't diatonically correct.....substituting Dorian for Aeolian is a common one for me....However, I don't think of it as substituting Dorian for Aeolian ; I just think of it as "Oooh, I like that" - substituting Dorian for Aeolian is just what happens

 

[JW56789]

Just don't use 'Standby' mode.

These questions always flummox me. Why don't you just play something that fits, and adds a little something from your side of the stage. I don't mean to bash you for learning theory and your scales backwards and forwards, it's important, but if you can't play something that fits, pulled from an innate musicality that can't be put on paper or measured, all of that is going to do you no good at all.

 

[juggahnaught]

Jesus, people, he's trying to learn something new. Music is worth learning and skills and knowledge are worth the effort to acquire. Is it so difficult to give a straight answer to a simple question?

I am learning my modes and now I am looking to start using them in my playing mainly for fills and riffs.
My question is about choosing what mode to use over a given chord.
For example say I am in the key of C and the Am chord is playing. I – vi – IV – V (C – Am – F – G)
I definitely know that I can use A aeolian but could I also use A dorian or A phrygian over the Am chord? They all have the chord tones in Am but I am not sure if you can choose a mode from a different key like A dorian or A phrygian?

The short answer is yes, you can. The chord tones in A minor (just the triad) are A, C, and E, and since all of the minor modes (dorian, aeolian, phrygian) contain those notes, they are all fair game. You may consider using the non-chord tones as passing tones in this case.

The slightly longer answer - yes, you can, but be aware that dwelling on the non-chord tones can imply a different chord. (For example - if you dwell on the F note in A aeolian while an A minor triad is playing, the implied chord is actually an F major 7th - but if you do that with an F# from A dorian, you imply an F# half diminished chord. The register in which you play the note will determine the inversion of the chord.) This is okay to do if you use your ears and know how/when to do it.

An addition to the slightly longer answer - as you begin to encounter chords with more than three notes (tetrads, pentads), you'll begin to find that the number of "correct" modes to choose from starts to get smaller. To use the example above, F major 7th (let's use the first inversion - so instead of ordering it F, A, C, E, we have A, C, E, F, also known as an A minor 6th) has four notes - A aeolian and A phrygian share the same chord tones, but A dorian does not due to the F#. It's something to think about once you get to that point.

The TLR answer to your original question: Yes. You are correct. If a mode contains the chord tones, go wild.

Good luck!