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Chord extension recognition

#21
Let's take a look at a cover song, "American Boy" by Scary Pockets.
N.B. Surprise(!) Bass: Leland Sklar

It's, kind of, repetitive chord progression, but there is that "but."

If we listen to the chords played on the piano, plus, some added guitar notes, then, we have the following progression.

Intro

Measure 1: (Cmaj9/G) - it means, we have Cmaj9 inversion starting with G.

Measure 2: (Abmaj7/G) as Amaj7 inversion starting with G. In addition, thanks to the guitar notes, that Abmaj7 becomes as (Abmaj9(#11)/G) - additional notes of Bb and D natural.

Measure 3: Beat 1 and 2) (Cmin7/Bb) as Cmin7 inversion starting with Bb and (Beat 3 and 4) Amin7b5, with the guitar notes, as Amin11b5.

Measure 4: Abmaj7 (Beat 1 and 2) and (Dmin7b5/Ab) as Dmin7b5 inversion starting with Ab.

Not too complex.

Now, let's take a look at the bass line - dry, punchy and lots of slides while changing chords.

(The 8ths notes with the second eighth note/s stressed.)

C - Ab - F - Bb/B natural - B natural as chromatic passing note.
Very simple.

Let's put together the chord progression of all instruments:
The bass notes are in Bold.

Measure 1: Cmaj9/G)/C
Measure 2: (Abmaj9(#11)/G)/Ab
Measure 3: (Cmin7/Bb)/F and Amin11b5/F
Measure 4: Abmaj7/Bb and (Dmin7b5/Ab)/B

(After my chores, we will try to decipher those simple chords from a pop song.)
 
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#23
Don Kasper said:
I'll be watchin' you....Don Kasper (and Mr. Sting.)
Click to expand...

I think there are (extremely) very few professional musicians/TB members who are still in love with music.
And Don, you are one of those "very few."
Thank you.

Now, we have that "but..."

Yes, harmony is similar but different(!) and "American Boy" has those extensions to "hear, recognize, and memorize."
I'll be watching you (very DIATONIC): I - vi - IV - V7
What could be more DIATONIC then Sting's "I'll be watching you."

N.B. I'm not talking about Bridge of that song.


A simplified and "amateur-ised" chord progression of "American Boy."

I - VIb - IV/iv - VIIb/VII.

Looks similar but no Champaign.

P.S. Don, could you, please, rewrite the my provided America Boy progression in your - the normal - way.

Thank you.
 
#24
Whousedtoplay said:
P.S. Don, could you, please, rewrite the my provided America Boy progression in your - the normal - way.
Click to expand...
Hi Who.....
The Scary Pockets are playing:measure by measure-
Cmaj7/9
Abmaj7,9 (etc.)
F7,9,sus to F7,9
Bb7,9,13,sus to Bdim7

The original version (transposed to Cmaj from Emaj) is: (I like this more better.)
Cmaj7,9
Abmaj7,9 (etc.)
Fmin7,9
Fmin7,9 (for 2 beats_ then Bb7,9,13,sus for 2 beats.

Whousedtoplay said:
I'll be watching you (very DIATONIC): I - vi - IV - V7
What could be more DIATONIC then Sting's "I'll be watching you."
Click to expand...
I was NOT comparing the 2 songs, only letting you know that I would be "Watching....." this Thread for your analysis....(I am NOT a Professional Joke Writer!!!! Sorry!)

Finally - I posted a few years ago regarding "American Boy" that I could hear Herbie Hancock soloing over the vamp...Such a cool harmonic island - IMFO, of course.
(Thanks for your kind words, WUTP - I admire your inquisitive nature and open mindedness - Very RARE in the the pages of TB.)

It is 104 F. in Burbank, CA, as I type. NO CHORES for me today!
Thanks.

 
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#25
Don Kasper said:
this Thread for your analysis....
Click to expand...

LOL.
Don, I can only express my personal amateur vision about various elements of music.
As an amateur musician, I don't teach and/or provide any guidance in learning music.

Don Kasper said:
It is 104 F. in Burbank, CA, as I type.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry!

Currently, 76 degrees in Houston with some light rain.
Very nice.
 
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#26
Whousedtoplay said:
"American Boy" by Scary Pockets.
Click to expand...

Now, here is my way of figuring out that Maj7 chord.
(It takes minutes to write about that subconscious chord recognition process in my brain
The first chord is Cmaj7 from the song.
Is it Major, Minor, Augmented, Diminished?
Maybe, it's Cdom7 (from Blues)?
No.
Maybe, it's C6?
No. In my childhood I've played way too many easy folk songs on the accordion that had lots of those Major Sixth chords.
Maybe, it's the Hendrix chord from "Funky tracks?"
No, no, and no.

It's a MAJOR chord with some aural "dirtiness."
It's not just a simple major triad.
To me, it immediately reminded a second chord from the Beatles' song, "Something."
C ("Something in the way she") - Cmaj7("moves").

N.B. For me there is a difference between two very similar chords - Maj7 and Maj9.
The maj9 chord has some "taste" of the dominant sound.
Cmaj7 - C E G B, or my favorite voicing (inversion): G B C E.
Cmaj9 - C E G B D, and that D note adds some "sense" of something Dominant.
In Cmaj9 we have "strong" notes of G structure - G D and B.
Yes, it's a tiny nuance but...

Next.

The harmony moves from Cmaj7 to Abmaj7 as I - VIb.
Even I as an amateur musician can easily recognize that chord progression.
It would be a good idea to memorize that movement.
It's been used in numerous songs with different "tails" - cadences.
The Abmaj7 chord is a borrowed chord from Cmin - a Major scale transformed to its parallel minor.
Here are the notes of the C minor scale.

Cminorscale.png


Once again, I can hear some "dirtiness" in that Ab chord; therefore, I "assume" the presence of maj7 - the note of G.
What's more, the note, G provides a nice and smooth connectivity with Cmaj7.

P.S. Just another personal thought.
When the song has some "jazzy" tendencies/inclination, it's normal to add a ninth (or 2) to a Maj7 chord.
 
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#27
Whousedtoplay said:
Measure 3: (Cmin7/Bb)/F
Click to expand...

Measure 3:
(Beat 1 and 2) - We have the following notes (played as chord) in the right (piano) hand: Bb - C - Eb - G.
It's "pure" inverted Cmin7 but because of the bass note of F, it becomes - as Don wrote - F7,9 sus.

Whousedtoplay said:
Amin11b5/F
Click to expand...

Measure 3:
Beat 3 and 4: The upper chord structure - the right piano hand - clearly informs me, "It's Amin7b5."

Amin7b5 as A C Eb G.
When we add the bass note of F, then, it becomes the F7,9 chord - as Don indicated in his previous email.

Whousedtoplay said:
Measure 4: Abmaj7 (Beat 1 and 2)
Click to expand...

In M4 (Beat 1 and 2), we have the following notes of the right piano hand: Ab C Eb G, and the bass note of Bb.
The chord is a member of the Bb sus family.

The chord notes (ascending) Bb (bass) - Ab C Eb G.
The chord name - as Don wrote - Bb7,9,13.
I would like to add some more wording: Bb7(for Ab), 9(for C), 11(for Eb), 13(for G), plus no 3 and 5.
Bb7,9,11,13 (no 3 and 5).

No wonder it's so easy for me to notate it as Abmaj7/Bb - it's so nice and clean.
And it's in Pop music.
 
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#28
Whousedtoplay said:
Measure 4: ... and (Dmin7b5/Ab)/B
Click to expand...

I promise it's my last posting :thumbsup: in such a popular "chord recognition" thread:roflmao:.

I've just needed to "decipher" the last passing chord in M4 (Beat 3 and 4).

(Dmin7b5/Ab)/B - B C D F Ab.
It's so close to Bdim7 but that note of C forces me to call it Bdim7b9.

Let's sum up those chord in four measures:

Cmaj7
Abmaj7
F7,9 sus4 / F7,9
Bb7,9,11,13 (no 3 and 5)/Bdim7b9.
 
#29
Whousedtoplay said:
It's so close to Bdim7 but that note of C forces me to call it Bdim7b9.
Click to expand...
IMFO - Bdim7b9 is not a legitimately recognized chord name or analysis, (though "mathematically" you are correct.) I don't think it sounds very pleasant when I play it at the piano. But that is just ME.
That "B" in the bass is a very unusual note choice under that chord. (I like the sound of a G in the bass there - so the voicing remains the same but the harmony is then - G7,b9,sus.)
Also - How are you decoding the exact voicing of that chord? (C D F Ab). What technology is supplying those exact notes to you?
Just wondering, as a technological Dinosaur Fart. Not looking for a BassBrawl!
Thanks, WUTP.
 
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#30
Don Kasper said:
Bdim7b9 is not a legitimately recognized chord name or analysis
Click to expand...

That was a "tough" choice to name that chord.
That's why I needed your help.


Don Kasper said:
How are you decoding the exact voicing of that chord? (C D F Ab). What technology is supplying those exact notes to you?
Click to expand...

I always start with the bass notes in detail.
In this case, it's B natural - a passing note to C from Bb.
Next. I do slow down the track/song to 20% of the original tempo and start working with various kinds of EQ frequency filters. I've have numerous of my own EQ presets for various sounds of piano, keys, organ, guitar, etc...
Plus, Transcribe! allows me to adjust the tuning - Octave up/Down.
And I labor until I get the most clear sound of that particular instrument - the piano, organ, guitar.

EQ.png


In addition, Transcribe! has a Karaoke feature that allows me to, more or less, remove the vocals.
What's more, by changing the position of the Out of phase feature - to the left, to the right - I get "stronger" sound of this/that instrument.

To sum up.
Slow down and pinpoint the very specific and very narrow location/selection on the track just to hear what's happening this/that moment without any background noise .

Karaoke.png



Next, after I have created a special proprietary set for that particular track, for that particular instrument,
I start working on to match the timbre of my digital piano - Williams Overture III plus either Studio One 5 Pro and/or Overture - with the timbre of my target instrument from the track.
Yes, numerous digital keyboard instruments have a lot of residual "dirty" background of their digital effect, and it requires additional efforts to try to figure out the chord notes.
With early versions of Jazz music and "pure" piano it's much much easier to work with.

N.B. But eventually, it gets down to my personal skills, experience, knowledge on the piano in order to determine the notes.

About that one specific Bdim7b9 chord.
Probably, the best way to name it would be G7,b9,11 no root(?).
I've had encountered numerous times that chord, but always under different names.
(Even just recently while we were discussing the chords from Al Jarreau's Blue Skies.)
That chord "fits" so perfectly on the piano for my right hand - (descending) F D C Ab.
 
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#31
Whousedtoplay said:
That was a "tough" choice to name that chord.
That's why I needed your help.




I always start with the bass notes in detail.
In this case, it's B natural - a passing note to C from Bb.
Next. I do slow down the track/song to 20% of the original tempo and start working with various kinds of EQ frequency filters. I've have numerous of my own EQ presets for various sounds of piano, keys, organ, guitar, etc...
Plus, Transcribe! allows me to adjust the tuning - Octave up/Down.
And I labor until I get the most clear sound of that particular instrument - the piano, organ, guitar.

View attachment 4803897

In addition, Transcribe! has a Karaoke feature that allows me to, more or less, remove the vocals.
What's more, by changing the position of the Out of phase feature - to the left, to the right - I get "stronger" sound of this/that instrument.

To sum up.
Slow down and pinpoint the very specific and very narrow location/selection on the track just to hear what's happening this/that moment without any background noise .

View attachment 4803905


Next, after I have created a special proprietary set for that particular track, for that particular instrument,
I start working on to match the timbre of my digital piano - Williams Overture III plus either Studio One 5 Pro and/or Overture - with the timbre of my target instrument from the track.
Yes, numerous digital keyboard instruments have a lot of residual "dirty" background of their digital effect, and it requires additional efforts to try to figure out the chord notes.
With early versions of Jazz music and "pure" piano it's much much easier to work with.

N.B. But eventually, it gets down to my personal skills, experience, knowledge on the piano in order to determine the notes.

About that one specific Bdim7b9 chord.
Probably, the best way to name it would be G7,b9,11 no root(?).
I've had encountered numerous times that chord, but always under different names.
(Even just recently while we were discussing the chords from Al Jarreau's Blue Skies.)
That chord "fits" so perfectly on the piano for my right hand - (descending) F D C Ab.
Click to expand...
OMG...Did you work at NASA???
Very Impressive skillset.
Thanks for your explanation and expertise.
Also - re: "G7,b9,11 no root" -
Maybe "G7,b9, sus, over B in the bass" (still sounds icky to me... the C against B rub is nasty.)
 
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#33
All very interesting .... Actually, on listening to the track a few times, I don't think there's really a meaningful harmonic function where Sklar plays the B. That is, everybody isn't going together to some diminished chord there. It really sounds more like they keep hanging out roughly on Fm7, and the move through B is just Sklar going from point A to point B (or point Bb to point C, if you like). IOW, I don't think it really means much of anything in terms of analysis, and I don't think anybody is saying, hey, we play some variant of a dim7 here.
And you notice that Sklar doesn't always do that anyway. Sometimes he takes another path to getting from Bb to C.

I think it's just a passing tone in the bass. We do that all the time, and it doesn't affect the basic underlying harmonic movement much (if at all).
 
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#36
Whousedtoplay said:
Yes, but what about that prevalent note of C in that Bdim7 chord?
(Very slow and EQ filtered.)

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...3/?temp_hash=55a98dc57a136d31b7f1936a1d816b21
Click to expand...
IMO they're still just hanging out basically in the harmonic area of the preceding chord, what you're calling the Abmaj7/Bb. The flavor of what the pianist and guitarist are doing doesn't change much in those two beats, and if you heard them without the bass I don't believe you'd think either one was going for some kind of diminished harmony. My suggestion is that the passing notes in the bass go by too fast to matter for the harmonic analysis.

As I said, it's very common on the bass to play passing tones that don't really affect the underlying harmony for analytical purposes. Are you old enough to know the Barney Miller theme? IIRC it starts as follows:

F G G# A Bb B C

The G, G#, Bb, and B are insignificant for analytic purposes. You wouldn't typically say the harmony is changing each note, nor try to assign a separate chord to each one. Technically, you could, I suppose, but no musician I've ever met would. It's all chromatic approach tones leading to inversions under an F. You wouldn't--for example--say F, F/G, Ab6b9, F/A, Bbmaj9no3, B7b9#11no3, F/C. It wouldn't help much of anyone, and probably no one would want you to do it.
 
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#38

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#39
Whousedtoplay said:
Don, in that measure with our chord in question, the guitar plays (descending) Eb - D - C and C with Cmaj7.
Could it be some derivative of your favorite plagal cadence as Fmin6 with that "strange" bass note of B?

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...3/?temp_hash=6931bf17cefdedcd3e9598922bddf5e0
Click to expand...
I have no idea....
All I know is the original recording (in Emaj) is much more Harmonically Disciplined, which I like. (NO lazy Chromaticism in the bass register.)
This I like:

But that's me, and not everybody agrees with me. And that's OK.
Thanks, WUTP.
 
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#40
Don Kasper said:
But that's me, and not everybody agrees with me. And that's OK.
Thanks, WUTP.
Click to expand...
Don, thank you for your help.
Just the last question about some different track.
This morning, I was mesmerized by Bill Frisell's Strange Meeting.
The chord progression is simple but seriously complex (for me.)

And the very first chord posted a question for me.
It's "pure" Cmin7(9) but...
The counterpoint in Measure 1(as second melody) plays Gb.
Should it be the Cmin7add(b5) chord?

Here is that first chord just slowly.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=4b3437bcba2bf1098dbd4b7abbb4b8df


 

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