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Double Bass Chord question (beginner)

#21
ChuckCorbisiero said:
The OP posted the question in the Music Theory subfora which doesn't specify whether this a Jazz Harmony question or a Classical Harmony question. If we are referring to a Jazz improvised situation then IMO, Chick's system is hardly an "other" approach or explanation for notation. We are supposed to be able to hear what's going on. We are supposed to be listening and interacting not buried in a chart. The first four notes of the chord in the chord symbols is just a take off point or guide. Just sayin'.
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ChuckCorbisiero,

Below is the OP's 2nd entry: It was, in fact, a "jazz..." question. FYI.

"Thanks guys. I'm learning how to play "All the things you are" and was a bit confused by the C+7 in the 24th bar.
It's a chord I didn't expect there and to me (and my lack of knowledge) makes no sense. Bar 21 -24 is like this:
| F#-7 | B7 | Emaj7 | C+7 |
By seeing the first 3 chords I'd think "E major scale/modes" but then there would be a C#-7 and not a C+7.
It also isn't part of the Ab scale/modes following the C+7 (F-7,Bb-7,Eb7, etc ....) because then I would expect a C-7.
So basically, the C+7 is one big mystery to me.

Well, sometimes I think too much I guess"

Thanks for your time and interest.
 
#26
Whousedtoplay said:
Here is what Herbie Hancock says about Dom7(sus4) chords:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0E...ancock explains: you start with a 7th&f=false
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Who....., and Chuck,

I'd like to add to the conversation, noting that, ( when considering the D7(9)(13)sus chord), the Aminor7 is the "Dorian" Minor form of Aminor7.
The complete arpeggio, based on the A Dorian scale, then, is : A, C, E, G, B, D, F#,(A) with a "D" in the bass.

I hear that this chord DOES contain a "major 3rd"( F#) in the complete arpeggio ( when considering it as a "Xdominant7 " chord) - contrary to what both Mr. Kernfeld and Mr. Pellitier-Bacquaert have stated.
On "Maiden Voyage", for example, check out the use of the Major 3rd, F#, (on the D9sus) @ 4:12 in the trumpet solo...and the Major 3, A natural,( from C Dorian), on F9sus@ 4:19 in the piano, answering the trumpet...
Also, at 4:28 ( D9sus), in the piano solo - diatonic 3rds, using the A Dorian Minor ( containing F#)...
There is almost no utilization of the "Minor3rd" on a "X7sus" chord. ( During the piano solo, @4:48, there is a passing b3, but I think HH is voicing something other than an F9sus chord):




Thanks for your time and interest.
 
#28
Whousedtoplay said:
Let’s stay on the augmented chord.
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I was just sayin' this modal is stuff is cool but not really complete. It's elegant and nice and neat (mathematical) but unless you include a discussion of 'borrowing' and 'super imposition' it's incomplete as a tool for compositional improvisational purposes. If one uses their ear as a guide all this stuff becomes a moot point in other words. Interesting stuff though. Back to the Augmented chord. Sorry for the OT.
 
#29
Not here to argue with Chick, but a "Horizontal Slash" (i.e. the method used for fractions) has been used to indicate a Polychord.

C_alt_slash.jpg
or C7(#9b13), or is it C7(b10b13)?

And a "Forward Slash" used to indicate a chord with a specifically noted bass note (i.e., a chord in an inversion).

C_.jpg
or Cm6/9.
 
#31
ChuckCorbisiero said:
Well golly gee Sticky.........might as well ask our friends from Nashville how they do a 6/9 :hiding: On top or on the bottom? I mean the 6 and 9 ....you know....6&9......oh hell.....fugetaboutit..........(WHO said tomotto? Right! No it was IONA TOMATO.)
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I thought that chord vocabulary was limited to Major Triads. :hmm:
 
#33
Norre said:
Thanks guys. I'm learning how to play "All the things you are" and was a bit confused by the C+7 in the 24th bar.
It's a chord I didn't expect there and to me (and my lack of knowledge) makes no sense. Bar 21 -24 is like this:
| F#-7 | B7 | Emaj7 | C+7 |
By seeing the first 3 chords I'd think "E major scale/modes" but then there would be a C#-7 and not a C+7.
It also isn't part of the Ab scale/modes following the C+7 (F-7,Bb-7,Eb7, etc ....) because then I would expect a C-7.
So basically, the C+7 is one big mystery to me.

Well, sometimes I think too much I guess :help:
Click to expand...

Its just the V7 of the F-7.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com
 
#35
iona bass said:
Whousedtoplay,
Yes.
C7 altered is a dominant 7th chord that can contain both the b5/#5 ( or the #4/b13 - same thing). In the jazz world, we don't refer to it as a "split fifth" - we simply say that ( in C7 alt.), the notes F# and G# (from the altered scale), appear as part of the arpeggio that is created by "stacking/voicing " the notes of the C Altered scale ( C, Db, Eb, Enatural, F#, G#, Bb, C) - here is one common way to stack or voice the scale as a chord:

(low ) C - then E, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb. ( note the "stacked perfect fourths" - the top 5 notes). I would name this chord :
"C7, +5, #9, b9,#11".
( C7alt. is a "shorthand" version... It's just a personal preference).
Music theory books always seem to show "root position" chords, which rarely appear in more modern music. ( My apologies to Phillip Glass....) The "voicing/ordering" of the arpeggio is another story...

If this C7alt. is pointing/leaning towards Fminor, the bass note can move to a Gb/F#, before resolving to the Fminor. This movement of the bass note, is commonly referred to as a "Tritone Substitution", as the bass note moves a tritone ( an interval of a "b5th" ) before resolving down to the Fminor by a half-step, from above. The chord/voicing can remain unchanged - it sounds OK with either the C or Gb as the root.

As to the whole-tone scale, here is Wayne Shorter's composition " Juju", in which the first 8 bars of the tune ( in 3/4), is a B7+5 Whole-Tone sound ( NOT a B7alt.):


Beginning at the piano solo @1:00, the pianist plays almost exclusively "whole-tone" material each time through the form, during those first 8 bars.
The bassist supports the tonality of the chord by playing lots of "root" (B), and occasionally an F ( there's the b5).

Thanks for your time and interest.
Click to expand...


C7alt/E also sounds good bringing u back to the F-7.
 
#36
xabicho said:
It is a C7 (#5)
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I don't hear it like that in "all the things you are"
I hear it as C7alt or C7b9, b13. you can call it for discussion purposes whatever u want, Ab or G# thats fine. but to my ear, i'm hearing C7 with a b9,#9, and a b13...if u wanna throw in the natural 5 or b5 thats ur ears choice. If my line is heading toward using the natural 5 then maybe i'll play a descending Eb dom bop, or maybe a descending C spanish phrigian dom bop. If u want the C7alt sound maybe i'll play any of the Db mel min modes, mostly as bop scales, thats just what I like to hear. Gb Lydian b7 bop scale always sounds good to me, or maybe an ascending Bb Locrian natural 9 bop scale starting from the Ab: Ab,A,Bb,C,Db,Eb,E, Gb. And probable not all of the scale, just bits and pieces, whatever my ear is hearing at the time. But I'm not hearing whole tone there cuz i like the b9 sound going back to the F-7. And I'm not quoting any books here, i'm just saying.
Disclaimer: Everything I post on TB is only my opinion man!
www.basslessonslosangeles.com
 

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