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Christian bassist's. Need some advice.

M

Mike M.

Feb 14, 2010
2,208
174
#1
Actually, I'm sure a great many players regardless of style can relate to this, but this needs some special handling.

I play bass in one of four bands at our church and it's getting to the point where the drummer on our team is really getting me down. He's a technical monster and can do anything but in my very humble opinion he lacks one very important quality: wisdom. This guy cannot and will not think like a band player. Even if a song just calls for a straight ahead beat or just a simple groove he won't do it. Always has to throw in off beats, accents and syncopations that just don't fit and take away from the flow of the song at hand. As a result our band has this very choppy feel to it and it always sounds like we're fighting each other. There's no flow to the songs we do.

For the last two weeks I had the chance to fill in for the bass player on another team which of course meant playing with a differant drummer. This drummer played simple, didn't over play or under play and it was a JOY!! Seriously, I was really beginning to doubt myself by thinking that I didn't know how to play with feel or know how to play to a groove and while I have never viewed myself as a great player, this drummer and I sounded very good together. The songs sounded like songs, they flowed and I walked away feeling much better about myself.

Believe me, I know what our mission at church is and I know it's not about band competition. We're trying to uplift people and to help them to find and to follow Christ thru the music. But at the same time I would like for our band to do it better than what we are.

I really don't know how to approach the music director about this. The thing is, they've had a few talks with our drummer before, so this is not a new thing. How do you get a runner to walk? How do you get this guy to listen and to play what's needed instead of "hey, look what I can do!" Really, he's a nice guy and while I do like him as a person his playing is really getting to me. Maybe I shouldn't say anything at all and should just grin and bear it.

Really, I don't know how to handle this.
 
#2
If the music director has already had "a few talks" with him, he isn't likely to change. I don't know if you could change bands without also changing churches on not. If you can, do it!

If you can't, I'd consider quitting, hoping to get into one of the other bands later. It's clear that you don't enjoy playing with him, and it probably won't get any better.
 
#3
Marginal Tom said:
If the music director has already had "a few talks" with him, he isn't likely to change. I don't know if you could change bands without also changing churches on not. If you can, do it!

If you can't, I'd consider quitting, hoping to get into one of the other bands later. It's clear that you don't enjoy playing with him, and it probably won't get any better.
Click to expand...

Believe me, I've thought about it but I really do like the church a lot and for the most part the other musicians are very good and are great people to be around.

I know how I was trying to word how our drummer comes across. It's not that he's said this, but if actions can speak he might as well come out and say this: "yeah, I hear the beat that should be played, but THIS is the beat I'm GOING to play". He's very head strong, a very strong personality type and he won't budge.
 
#5
If it's possible try to rotate to one of the other bands, even if for just a few services to catch your breath. While the drummer might not listen maybe the MD would. Most church MD's have a decent grasp of group harmony and how to work through problems.

We have had similar problems with a geetar player who is VERY talented and used to play for a famous country music star. WE now understand why that didnt last very long. NO matter what the song calls for he will not play chords, not even a strum, at all. He is a lead player:rollno:

Our MD has had a few words with him and it has made a difference.
 
#6
Prayerfully examine your own motives first and just take it to the music director. Agree or disagree with that person, but only one person can be in charge at a time. Be very forthright and just explain your concerns. If the music director cannot or will not deal with it, you’re going to just have to live with it.

I play in worship for a praise band and also for the orchestra at my church and see the two as very similar – if I thought the trumpets were playing too loudly all the time, I would tell the conductor – not try to direct the brass section myself. (That doesn’t mean we don’t talk, share information, advice, opinions but let the director direct.)

Just be forthright and honest.
 
#7
Wow - are there drummers like this in every church?

I've sat down and spoken to our guy, and mentioned a couple of drummers which I think he should watch and try mimic - Our drummer in question is also into metal style and so I tried to find drummers there who are capable of playing the insane stuff, but for the sake of the music they won't do it all the time. It seemed to work for a week or two - but it is an on-going thing.

If you aren't prepared for a hardline approach then stop reading here. These are my views after a couple years of experience and I'm sure many people will think it's too harsh.

The leader (I'm 2IC in our band) has to do the talking. When the guy is not doing right, the leader needs to stop the song (in practices, obviously not in the service!) and say - "I don't want that beat, it detracts from the overall sound", when the drummer gets it right, the leader needs to encourage them. When they start trying their own stuff again, then the band needs to stop and the musical director must do his job and direct the music. In the end one of two things will happen - one, the drummer will be uncomfortable, but will grow and change his mindset - to become a better, wiser stronger drummer, or two, the drummer will refuse to change and leave because of offense or he will become counter productive at which point he will be against the vision of the band and will have to step down.

If he's in 'right-standing', it'll be a tough growth curve for him, but he will have to do it at some stage. If he's easily offended, he'll move to other churches until he is forced to change his mindset, or he finds a place where they don't have a strong vision. Obviously it's important to show love to everyone, but when people start to work against the vision, then they are going to be negatively influencing many other people and they need to understand that they are still wanted, but cannot be in that leadership position, with the attitude they have.

Hope this helps. In the end the muscial director is the leader, they need to take responsibility.
 
#9
Ask your musical director to do what we do, rotate a pool of 30 or so musicians so that you're very rarely playing with the same people. Other than that, see if one of the bass players wants to trade spots with you.

My teacher who is a pretty successful guitarist once came across a crazy good drummer like you are describing. Gave lessons, played in a prog metal band. They were goofing around and guit. asked drum. to lay down a simple 4/4 beat. Drum couldn't do it.
 
#10
If the drummer is really bugging you I suggest getting on a different band ASAP. Talk to the director and try to keep it private so no feelings are hurt. If it were me, the more I'd play, the more stressed I'd get and I could easily say or do something that'd ruin the whole vibe which is having fun and sharing your talents.
 
#11
One of the problems I frequently encounter among amateurs (I am in this category, despite my 42+ years of playing) is the inability to listen to others. Just last night the guitarist in our P&W (I'm just a sub for a few Sundays) leans over and tells me to play this and that. Had he been listening at all, he would have known that was exactly what I was playing. Maybe he stands too close to the keyboardist's monitor, who likes to play bass all over me. And then there was the vocalists who complained that the band was too loud in the monitors and wanted it taken out ... then proceeded to jump in one beat early after every instrumental fill. I guess it's part of the P&W experience.

I spent a month or two with a P&W non-church affiliated band, and that wasn't any better. I bailed after completing my obligations. I'll stick to secular music and bluegrass gospel quartets.
 
#12
Lots of good advice here and a few things mentioned have been in practice for a long time.

As far as my own motives all I can say is this: I just want us to sound like a BAND. Again, I know it's not about competition and it's not about hey, look at me. The last thing I want to do to any musician is to discourage them from experimenting or from improvising in any context. I even improvise but it's during little fills and in turn arounds here and there. But if a song calls for me to go D...D...D...D...through the whole song (because that's what's best) I'm gonna do it. Even if we're not the best band there that's fine just as long as we sound like a band.

We have no excuse for not listening because each rehearsal is recorded and we all get our own CD copy. I admit there's been many times where I played something, thought it was good but then when I listened back to the CD I can hear plain as day what I have to change and I do change it. But this drummer will not listen. I remember one song in particular where the drum part should have been a brisk, pop/disco kinda beat to it and I was to play this pumping bass part. The drum part sounded like an avalanche and I'm up there thinking "am I the only one who can hear how bad this sounds?" I thought well, maybe he'll go home, will listen to the CD and will hear how badly he's overplaying. Nope, didn't happen and no one said a word to him. I couldn't believe it.

The bad thing is, if I were to transfere to another band within it wouldn't be long before everybody would start wondering what's up.

When you get down to it, I know that this drummer and I have the ability to become a KILLER rhythm section who could handle any song that's thrown at us. But he won't listen.

I'm not out for any self-glorification and even though I get a fair amount of compliments I always remind myself that it's a big world out there filled with players who could do it all better than I ever could. So it's not that I think I'm better than anyone, but I am going to talk to the director very soon about this because there's no excuse for not listening.
 
#13
Sounds good. The main thing is to approach it in a professional way - and to get the director involved. If the director knows about music they will know what you are talking about and it's up to them to make the band as a collective sound like a band.

As a member of the band all you should have to worry about is your sound and doing your part that suits the music best.

Confrontational situations like this can be tricky for the director, especially when dealing with sensitive people - like musicians :), but at the end it's their job and they need to lead.
 
#14
+1 to letting the leader be the leader. It usually makes it easier for everyone. If it really is as bad as you say it is, then it is most likely distracting from worship. You need to make that point to the worship leader. My recommendation would be to have a sit down talk about it, maybe over lunch (they will usually buy your meal :) ). But, if you have a serious talk about it with your worship director and share your heart on the matter, he will take you seriously. IME

Also, if you haven't already been there, you may be interested in this thread.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657184&page=20
 
#15
I feel your pain. I played with a drummer (he started the band actually) that was really loose. The band talked about getting tighter - he'd play louder. When I would suggest practicing as a rthym section, he would tell me that he actually gets worse if he practices. It was causing a growing tension in the band, and in the end, he left. We have a new drummer who is a meter meister and respects the song. It's all good now.
My advice, tactfully find a new gig - either at this church, or another. Life is too short, and you have been called to serve. Little bumps are to be expected, but a stubborn spirit is tough. Your musical director needs to be front and center on this situation. Hang in there, and play with praise in your heart.
 
#16
We recently just got a new drummer at my church. We're in a small country church and we play all hymns/choruses. We do not rotate at all, I'm the only bassist, he's the only drummer, my mom's the only piano player, and so on and so forth (three singers do rotate however). The drummer was just starting out when he joined the team, had a kit of his own which he generously allowed the church to keep at the church (he can come and play anytime he wants to) and was taking lessons but he couldn't pick out the beat or anything as such. However, he would listen when we gave him advice, we encouraged him a lot and we basically we're given an untrained drummer that we were able to train (along with his teacher). What a blessing it is to have a drummer who has only ever worked with you. We're on our third month in and he has turned into a really good drummer. No longer do we have to explain the beats or anything to him he sits down and picks it up!

How does this apply to your band? I don't think it does really (sorry!) but I feel your pain. It was rough to play with a drummer who wasn't on beat (neither was I a lot of the time because I would get thrown off) and so if you don't have the opportunity to train the guy you're way, talk to the director, get him switched or have yourself switched. Something's got to change or your personal progress will be slowed immensely by this guy because of an attitude issue.


Side note: Do not switch church's. Church's are not a revolving door to the same place. Not all congregations are preaching the truth and you need to be sure yours is. (This is not intended for any one person in particular). If your church isn't preaching truth (to be determined through study of the Bible and prayer), then you should switch, and only then!
 
#18
Seems to be a problem with younger drummers raised in the church! They have this inate feeling that they have to 'shed' ALL the time! Even when it's not appropriate! I've played paying gigs with church drummers of this type and it drove me nuts! IMHO, this behavier is NOT appropriate whether in or outside the church! It's basically self serving! It's nice that they have the chops to do that sort of thing but there's a time and place for everything! If it was me, I'd demand that he stop it immediately! When one is part of an ensemble, there is NO place for any self serving type of playing! I won't stand for it! And I don't want to hear this "it's the spirit moving me to play this way"! That's a bunch of bullcrap! It's self-serving! Stop it!
 
#19
If you were a pro band doing paying gigs, the leader would take a very different approach, laying down the law.

But a worship band is very different, because of the objective and the guiding principles. A lot of musically immature musicians overplay, and it's the job of the worship leader to encourage them to play more appropriately for the song. That's learning what musicianship is all about. But because the #1 objective is not to be musically perfect, but to offer our music in worship, we can't take a hard-line approach to such immature musicians, but gently and patiently encourage them to develop. Some will listen and improve, some won't. Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.
 

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