Exactly - they may be the same thing but the convention is to say F is the fourth of C
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Circle of fifths - Understanding
- Thread starter Mikell
- Start date
Exactly - they may be the same thing but the convention is to say F is the fourth of C
Rather than flipping the chart to its mirror image, isn't it more useful to recognize that when going around the diagram I posted counterclockwise, the ascending intervals are fourths? That way, you only need a single diagram to illustrate both circles.
For example, you say, "If you move counterclockwise, a 5th down from C is F, and in that key there is one flat, B." It is just as accurate to say, "if you move counterclockwise, a 4th up from C is F."
Onlyclave - It actually does have something to do with scale degrees, because we were talking about scale degrees. That was the context. To the OP - this is a matter of frame of reference. F is a perfect 5th down from C, yes. And - it is the 4th degree in the C major scale. That relationship is called an inversion.
C is the 5th degree of the F major scale.
F is the 4th degree of C major.
C is the 5th degree of the F major scale.
F is the 4th degree of C major.
That is correct. You could most certainly look at it that way.
HOWEVER, intervals change depending on the direction by which you approach them. For example: the interval between A up to C is a minor 3rd, but A down to C below it is a major 6th. By the same token, C up to F is a 4th, but C down to F is a 5th (as you mentioned).
I am always asked about the Cycle of 5ths and how it works. But the question goes deeper than just an explanation of that one point. To understand why this is so you need an understanding of Tetrachord Scale Theory. This explains and gives you the understanding to construct scales and keys which the Cycle of 5ths is part of.
So to this end here is a quick introduction to the Cycle of 5ths;
Scales and their construction is easy if you understand a few laws and rules of music theory, so just a quick touch on the subject at its basic level.
The C scale is perfect, it has no sharps or flats, its 4th and 5th intervals are said to be perfect intervals as well;
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
It has T-T-S-T-T-T-S (T=tone S=Semitone) as its intervals and is considered to be Ionian which is all the white notes on a piano C to C. Also the 7th (note) is a semitone from the tonic (8th note)
Go to the 5th and write a new scale;
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
for this scale to be considered Major it must follow the laws stated, and the laws say intervals must be T-T-S-T-T-T-S which this if not, it is the Mixolydian mode, which is all the white keys on a piano G to G and intervals that are T-T-S-T-T-S-T
The next law is the 7th note and the Tonic must be a semitone apart for it to be considered a major scale, this also does not comply
So this scale fails as E-F is a semitone and F-G is a tone, so this must be addressed.
The only option here to sharpen the 7th note, the F to keep the intervals at T-T-S-T-T-T-S so now the scale reads;
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G it follows all the criteria to be now considered a G major scale, as the adding of the sharp (#) solves both interval problems between the E-F and the F-G in one move. Please write this out and see how and understand why.
Now go to the 5th note of the G Major scale and repeat, so now the new root is D
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D
You know the interval stucture has to be
T-T-S-T-T-T-S and that the 7th and the Tonic must be a semitone apart to be considered a major scale, so this scale needs the 7th raised, as thats the only option to give it the intervals it requires so it reads
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D and is now considered a D major scale. Again the intervals are T-T-S-T-T-T-S.
Now go to the 5th note of the D major scale and repeat so now the new root is A.... and so on and so on till you have 7 sharps.
Start at the C scale
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C go to the 4th and that is your new root and scale;
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F with the same rules, notice the 7th is OK this time as it is a semitone from the tonic, but the 4th is not as A-B is a tone not a semitone, and the 5th B-C is a semitone, so it fails. Your only option is to flatten the 4th, the B and this scale will read
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F
and can now be considered F Major.
Go to the 4th of F Major which is Bb and your new root, write the scale
Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb you'll see it fails because th D-E is a tone, and E-F is a semitone, so flatten the 4th which is E, the scale now reads
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb and can now be considered Bb major.
Go to the 4th of Bb Major and so on and so on till you have 7 flats.
So to create sharp keys you raise the 7th. To produce flat keys you lower the 4th when you create new scales this way from C.
This is why sharps and flats have an order and a key.
This is why the cycle of 5ths works.
This is why the cycle of 4ths works.
This is why tetrachord theory works
This is why chord theory works.
This is....i could go on but the C scale is not that straight forward as it may seem, if you understand and can construct scales. Hope this has helped point you in the right direction and have fun with it.
Read more:Link Removed
So to this end here is a quick introduction to the Cycle of 5ths;
Scales and their construction is easy if you understand a few laws and rules of music theory, so just a quick touch on the subject at its basic level.
The C scale is perfect, it has no sharps or flats, its 4th and 5th intervals are said to be perfect intervals as well;
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
It has T-T-S-T-T-T-S (T=tone S=Semitone) as its intervals and is considered to be Ionian which is all the white notes on a piano C to C. Also the 7th (note) is a semitone from the tonic (8th note)
Go to the 5th and write a new scale;
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
for this scale to be considered Major it must follow the laws stated, and the laws say intervals must be T-T-S-T-T-T-S which this if not, it is the Mixolydian mode, which is all the white keys on a piano G to G and intervals that are T-T-S-T-T-S-T
The next law is the 7th note and the Tonic must be a semitone apart for it to be considered a major scale, this also does not comply
So this scale fails as E-F is a semitone and F-G is a tone, so this must be addressed.
The only option here to sharpen the 7th note, the F to keep the intervals at T-T-S-T-T-T-S so now the scale reads;
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G it follows all the criteria to be now considered a G major scale, as the adding of the sharp (#) solves both interval problems between the E-F and the F-G in one move. Please write this out and see how and understand why.
Now go to the 5th note of the G Major scale and repeat, so now the new root is D
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-D
You know the interval stucture has to be
T-T-S-T-T-T-S and that the 7th and the Tonic must be a semitone apart to be considered a major scale, so this scale needs the 7th raised, as thats the only option to give it the intervals it requires so it reads
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D and is now considered a D major scale. Again the intervals are T-T-S-T-T-T-S.
Now go to the 5th note of the D major scale and repeat so now the new root is A.... and so on and so on till you have 7 sharps.
Start at the C scale
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C go to the 4th and that is your new root and scale;
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F with the same rules, notice the 7th is OK this time as it is a semitone from the tonic, but the 4th is not as A-B is a tone not a semitone, and the 5th B-C is a semitone, so it fails. Your only option is to flatten the 4th, the B and this scale will read
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F
and can now be considered F Major.
Go to the 4th of F Major which is Bb and your new root, write the scale
Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb you'll see it fails because th D-E is a tone, and E-F is a semitone, so flatten the 4th which is E, the scale now reads
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb and can now be considered Bb major.
Go to the 4th of Bb Major and so on and so on till you have 7 flats.
So to create sharp keys you raise the 7th. To produce flat keys you lower the 4th when you create new scales this way from C.
This is why sharps and flats have an order and a key.
This is why the cycle of 5ths works.
This is why the cycle of 4ths works.
This is why tetrachord theory works
This is why chord theory works.
This is....i could go on but the C scale is not that straight forward as it may seem, if you understand and can construct scales. Hope this has helped point you in the right direction and have fun with it.
Read more:Link Removed
This does help. Thank You.
The odd thing for me, is that I essentially know this without knowing...
Understanding from new perspectives is most interesting and helpful.
I've never been a good bass player when it comes to playing effectively with other people, or in 'groove' situations as I have never understood how or why music 'works'. I always just learned songs by listening to them and trying to get as close to what I was hearing as I possibly could. Hence I was most comfortable with the 'Blues' genre...
I would love to be able to play the jazz patterns that I hear on jazz tunes that I love, but they just don't seem to make sense to me and I never really know where things are going or where they are comming from, or how and why...??? Jazz bass parts just seem so constantly flowing and endlessly moving in chromatic(?) fashion...
I'm sure that by understanding the concepts I am learning here (TB in general) are going to help enormously.
So this is a Big Thank You to all who take the time to share this information.
KC in Acme
Just knowing the info is one thing, but applying it is another. The info on its own is nothing if it cannot be understood and applied.
If players never learn it but can function then so be it, that is the way of a player.
If someone can learn something but not apply it then that is trivia, something that without substance, application, or purpose is worthless.
Is someone can learn, apply, play etc. then that is a musician and one of the best tools to being a professional as you can do all the thing required of you.
These days info is broke down to sound bites but sometimes there has to be foundation to build on so that future learning has a place to sit. With that though..... you do not have to understand all you learn, there are some things that you take on in a "leap of faith" manner, because that will become clear later.
Music and learning it is not a "given", there are those out there that will put more time and effort into trying to find easy or quick ways to learn it than just learning it. In music if you understand on principal you can build from it to logical conclusions. I use the tetrachord theory because it takes in so many simple overlapping principals in one lesson and raised so many good ideas and questions to find answers out as you develop and learn. As for the jazz, don't worry about it, as you grow as a player so will you ambitions in music, that will ultimately lead you to jazz, where you will find that your ears will be one of the best tools you will have.
Fellows it's OK to use your fingers.
The 4th of C is what? Use your fingers ....C, D, E, F
The 5th of C is what? Again use your fingers .... C, D, E, F, G.
The 3rd of A is what? Using our fingers... A, B, C#. Yep the 3rd of A is C#.
We can get by with out the circle - just use your fingers.
Not trying to yank any one's chain, but, this is not all that complicated.
The 4th of C is what? Use your fingers ....C, D, E, F
The 5th of C is what? Again use your fingers .... C, D, E, F, G.
The 3rd of A is what? Using our fingers... A, B, C#. Yep the 3rd of A is C#.
We can get by with out the circle - just use your fingers.
Not trying to yank any one's chain, but, this is not all that complicated.
Here are a couple of links you may want to check out:
Key signatures/Circle of 5ths/Cycle of 4ths
Circle/Cycle of 5ths/4ths (spreadsheet format)
Key signatures/Circle of 5ths/Cycle of 4ths
Circle/Cycle of 5ths/4ths (spreadsheet format)
The Circle isn't about intervals, it's about chords, you're confusing the young grasshopper.
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- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Hey, if I could FIND a gif of a hamster trying to operate a bandsaw, I'd USE a gif of a hamster trying to operate a bandsaw.
Will it is about intervals...amongst other things.
If you simplify an idea and take it out of its context then confusion will follow when you move on from it.
In the quick intro i gave about Tetrachord theory (which is not hard to understand) it explains why sharps are so in scales, of which a cycle of fifth becomes apparent as it carries on adding sharps. The addition of flats shows why a cycle of fourths becomes apparent as it carries on adding flats.
So in later learning of chords, new scales, harmony, melody etc there is a complete foundation to fall back on, this is just one of many core foundations in music.
It depends on how much work a player/student wants to put in. For me, i learned this my first year of music and it was one of my first lessons, i was about eleven i think. We spend a few hours on it in class as a lesson, then i worked on it, writing it out and notating it as homework over the coming week and that was it done. In total maybe 6-7 hour of my time spread out over the week. But parts it came up again and again, and continue to do so i my playing life (nearly 40 years) so it is part of the ever on going fun of learning music.
You don't have to learn it all by heart just understand what it offers and if you apply it you can do many of the things it alludes to. I learned to count and i learned to write, if i want to i could count to six million, i never have and it has never even occurred to me to do it to even try. Because i know how units, tens, hundreds, and thousands work and can be ordered i know i can do it because i understand how to do it.
Music can be the same, understanding why and what can be done is as important as doing it.
Ok, yeah sure, but some pretty confusing information was being provided to a novice saying that F isn't a fourth below C (which is true), but the point that was made prior to this was more useful and equally true, which was that if you move counter clockwise, F is the IV of C. Roman numerals should have been used to distinguish chords from intervals I guess... The Circle's usage for understanding chord progressions is valuable, and the point was getting lost with the discussion of intervals.
I learned to count and i learned to write, if i want to i could count to six million, i never have and it has never even occurred to me to do it to even try. Because i know how units, tens, hundreds, and thousands work and can be ordered i know i can do it because i understand how to do it.
Music can be the same, understanding why and what can be done is as important as doing it.
+1 - Great argument to give to the "I don't need theory" crowd.
And chords don't have intervals? And moving from one key to the next, which is what the Circle shows, involves an interval, that being a 5th.
The Circle is about keys, and chords & scales within those keys. It's not that complicated.
