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Circle of fifths - Understanding

#41
Back to chords, notes, keys and scales.

A scale is an assortment of individual notes. How many and in what order depends on the scale. Scales normally make up our melody.

Chords are two to four notes taken from one scale, i.e. the major chord has three notes. Major chord has the 1, 3 & 5 note of the scale - every time. The minor chord has the 1, b3, 5 note of the scale - every time. So if the chord has a natural 3rd it's going to be a major chord and if it has a minor 3rd (b3) it's going to be a minor chord. A diminished chord is understood to be a minor chord with a lowered 5th. So a diminished chord will have a b3 and a b5, an augmented chord will raise the 5th to a #5. OK so chords are several notes from the scale. Now how they are sounded - all at once or one at a time - depends. Chords normally make up our harmony. What the guitards strum and we build our bass line from.

Key is a tricky word. We sing in keys. Our chords come from keys - that can be confusing. A key is a range of sound that range has both chords and scale notes in it. I like to sing in the key of D because I can hit all the high notes and catch all the low notes if I'm in the range of D. The director says; OK this next song is "Kiss Ole Kate" and let's play it in G. The people that will be playing melody will grab their melody notes from the G scale and the people furnishing harmony will grab their chords from the key of G. Keys normally indicate the range of the song - that range contains both notes and chords.

Hope that helps.
 
#43
MalcolmAmos said:
Major chord has the 1, 3 & 5 note of the scale - every time. The minor chord has the 1, b3, 5 note of the scale - every time.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. In a major key, the three major chords are the I, IV, and V. So taken as scale degrees (in C major for example):
I = 1-3-5 = C-E-G
IV = 4-6-8 (octave above the 1) = F-A-C
V = 5-7-9 = G-B-D

The minor chords are ii, iii, and vi. (The vii° is diminished.)
ii = 2-4-6 = D-F-A
iii = 3-5-7 = E-G-B
vi = 6-8-10 = A-C-E

We won't get into inversions. :cool:

And saying a 3rd is natural in a major chord and flat in a minor chord is misleading. Say we're in the key of A major:
I = A-C#-E
ii = B-D-F
iii = C#-E-G#
IV = D-F#-A
V = E-G#-B
vi = F#-A-C#
vii° = G#-B-D

Or if we're in Bb major:
I = Bb-D-F
ii = C-Eb-G
iii = D-F-A
IV = Eb-G-Bb
V = F-A-C
vi = G-Bb-D
vii° = A-C-Eb

Keys also do not indicate the "range of a song". I can play in the same key in several octaves on the piano, guitar, bass, etc. The instrument you're using (including your voice) defines the range, not the key itself.
 
#44
BillMason said:
Ok, yeah sure, but some pretty confusing information was being provided to a novice saying that F isn't a fourth below C (which is true), but the point that was made prior to this was more useful and equally true, which was that if you move counter clockwise, F is the IV of C. Roman numerals should have been used to distinguish chords from intervals I guess... The Circle's usage for understanding chord progressions is valuable, and the point was getting lost with the discussion of intervals.
Click to expand...

No. The circle of fifths is just a realization of a bunch of pitches spaced a perfect fifth apart. How can the circle aid in understanding diatonic harmony and chord progressions? I don't see chord qualities listed anywhere on there which is MORE important in understanding chord function which leads to progression.

Stop making the circle of fifths seem like it's more important that it really is. It's just a model of pitch relationships.
 
#45
MalcolmAmos said:
Back to chords, notes, keys and scales.

A scale is an assortment of individual notes. How many and in what order depends on the scale. Scales normally make up our melody.
Click to expand...

That is unless the melody is made of jumps instead of steps and that kind of throws your theory out the window.

Chords are two to four notes taken from one scale, i.e. the major chord has three notes. Major chord has the 1, 3 & 5 note of the scale - every time. The minor chord has the 1, b3, 5 note of the scale - every time. So if the chord has a natural 3rd it's going to be a major chord and if it has a minor 3rd (b3) it's going to be a minor chord. A diminished chord is understood to be a minor chord with a lowered 5th. So a diminished chord will have a b3 and a b5, an augmented chord will raise the 5th to a #5. OK so chords are several notes from the scale. Now how they are sounded - all at once or one at a time - depends. Chords normally make up our harmony. What the guitards strum and we build our bass line from.
Click to expand...

Again with this scale crap? A major chord is built of INTERVALS. In root position there's a major third between the root and third and a minor third between the third and fifth - every time. What scale would you relate to that? In C major if you find a D major chord which features an F#, that ain't in yo scale, is it? How you gonna analyze that?

Key is a tricky word. We sing in keys. Our chords come from keys - that can be confusing. A key is a range of sound that range has both chords and scale notes in it. I like to sing in the key of D because I can hit all the high notes and catch all the low notes if I'm in the range of D. The director says; OK this next song is "Kiss Ole Kate" and let's play it in G. The people that will be playing melody will grab their melody notes from the G scale and the people furnishing harmony will grab their chords from the key of G. Keys normally indicate the range of the song - that range contains both notes and chords.
Click to expand...

Whatever.

Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
 
#47
Ok the circle of fifths may be learned to quickly recognise a common interval. Reversing that circle is fourths and is probably all OP needs to know at this time and for the lesson. Information used later to identify an interval and possibly chord movement. Anything else is complicating matters unneccassarily. He shouldn't ask why he needs to learn something this just opens a can of worms as we can see. It's just a very simple bit of information to be expanded upon later when he is ready.

In practical use I was taught the cycle of fourths as this is a common way for harmony to move. Backcycling is a chord movement by fifth.
 
#48
For me as i view this thread the "Cycle" or "Circle" seems to be the focus not the information it contains. Here we have a good idea from some point in musical history to show how something works, then it was taken out of context, then its workings became the object of focus not its information.
I find it less confusing to teach it as part of tetrachord theory, then when i have finished that lesson, then offer "cycle" or "circle" as another way to help view or order part of that lesson.

Sorry but i am one who sees scales as one of the first things where i start in any of my teachings then expand from there.
I don't care for any of the arguments about chords over scales for beginners because its all about getting the info ordered and presented in a simple way that builds on each lesson.:)
 
#50
If one takes a moment to figure out what happens in the circle of fifths.

C Major = no sharps, no flats. Add the first sharp in the sharp sequence - it is an F#.
When you add a sharp you're not in the Key of C anymore - you're in G Major ( The Key of G major has one sharp; F#)
F# in relation to C is a sharp 4 to the root (C), but is "out" of the Key. F# is the really raised 3rd of the ii chord in C; ii in C is Dm. This turns D [Dorian] minor into a Dominant 7 Chord. A Dom7 has a Major 3 and a minor 7th - also notated as M3 and m7.
A Dominant chord, in diatonic Harmony wants to resolve a fourth up. The "new" Dominant chord built on ii (D Dom7) wants to resolve a fourth up to G Major.

The reason the 7th step in a Major scale is called the "leading tone" is because leads to the Key's root. B is C's leading tone; F# is G's leading tone

Now you've added a sharp (F#) you're in the Key of:
G Major = 1 sharp. Add the second sharp in the sequence - C#. Now you have two sharps; F# + C#
When there are two sharps you are not in G Major any more -- now you're in D Major (two sharps, F# & C#)
C# is the sharp 4 of G, but again is out of key. It is really the raised 3rd of ii in G; ii of G is A minor. This turns A [Dorian] minor into an A Dom7 also notated A7. (In G V7/V [A7/D])
In simple, regular Diatonic Harmony, like here, when you raise the minor 3rd (m3) of a minor chord to a Major 3rd (M3) it turns into a Dominant chord. (Not talking about Harmonic Minor here)

D Major = 2 sharps. Add the third sharp in the sharp sequence = G#.
Adding this third sharp takes you out of D Major and into A Major (contains three sharps, F#, C# & G#)
The G# is the raised 3rd of ii in D, ii of D is E - turning E min into E7.

From A Major = 3 sharps - you add the next sharp in the sequence = D#. Now you have four sharps; now you're in E Major.
Adding D# takes you out of A Major and into E Major (four sharps; F#, C#, G# & D#), a fifth up.
D# is the raised 3rd of ii in A, ii in A is B - turning B minor into B7 which "leads" or resolves to E

E Major = 4sharps. Raise the 3rd of ii gives you F#7 which wants to resolve up to B Major


..... and around the Circle of Fifths you go.

Every time you add a sharp (which come in a set sequence or pattern [F# C# G# D# A# E# B# F##...]), you are changing the Key.
Diatonic Keys have a set number of sharps and flats and they come in a sequence.
The circle fifths is about changing the Key in a sequence by adding a sharp.
This is done by raising the 3rd of the ii chord in one Key, which makes it Dominant, which "leads" it to the next Key, a fifth above.


Conversely: the Circle of fourths. I'm gonna start with G Major because I want to be as confusing as possible

G Major has 1 sharp as seen above = F# - it's major 7th (M7) or leading tone.
Lower that leading tone by adding a natural♮to F, making F# an F
F isn't in G Major - you've taken away the first sharp in the sharp sequence. So now you have no sharps.
There are no flats in G Major, and now you have no sharps. What Key has NO sharps and NO flats? C

C Major = no sharps, no flats. Lower the M7 step in C Major which is to turn B to a Bb. Bb is the first flat in the sequence of flats. Bb is the minor 7 of C.
Adding a lowered flat to a Major Ionian scale (Ionian is the name of the mode scale which is the I) turns C Major into C Dom7. Remember from above a Dom7 has an M3 and m7.
The Dominant chord is built with it's root on the fifth scale degree, hence the name V chord.
The seventh is lowered to a m7 so this chord is notated as a V7, to tell you it's the V with a lowered 7. C7 is found on the fifth scale degree of G.
A V7 chord usually resolves a fourth up in regular diatonic harmony. What Key is a fourth up from C? F Major

So now you have one flat.
F Major = 1 flat. Lower the M7 of F, which is E, to Eb. Eb is the second flat in the flat sequence.
Adding the m7 (Eb) turns F Major into F Dom or F7. Major chords contains a M3 and a M7, a Dom has a M3 and a m7, a diatonic minor has m3 and a m7.
An F Dom (or F7) wants to resolve a fourth up. What Key is a fourth up from F?

Bb Major = 2 flats. Now you have two flats (Bb & Eb). Lower the M7 of Bb, which is A to Ab. Now you have three flats in sequence, Bb, Eb & Ab.
Lowering the M7 to m7 turns I, Bb Major, into Bb7.
Bb7 wants to resolve a fourth up to?

Eb Major = 3 flats. Lower the M7 to m7 (D > Db) - turns Eb into Eb7. Now you have four flats - you must be in the Key of ? and Eb7 wants to resolve a fourth up to ?

Ab Major = 4 flats

and around and around the Circle of Fourths you go, lowering the M7's each time in the flat sequence Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb, Bbb, Ebb........

The Circle of Fourths is changing Keys by adding a flat or canceling a sharp with a natural.
This first lowered step in a Major Key is seventh, turning the Major into a Dominant which wants to resolve a fourth up.


A chord can be defined by just two notes = the 3rd and the 7th, but that's Harmony. Think about it!
This is also a clue as to why the ii7 > V7 > I is discussed so much as a chord progression.
 
#52
ryco said:
A chord can be defined by just two notes = the 3rd and the 7th, but that's Harmony. Think about it!
This is also a clue as to why the ii7 > V7 > I is discussed so much as a chord progression.
Click to expand...

No, two notes don't DEFINE a chord anymore than two points in space DEFINE 3 dimensions. You can PLAY two notes and, as long as someone else is filling in parts it will fulfill the function...
 
#53
Ed Fuqua said:
No, two notes don't DEFINE a chord anymore than two points in space DEFINE 3 dimensions. You can PLAY two notes and, as long as someone else is filling in parts it will fulfill the function...
Click to expand...
You are correct, sir. I was getting ahead of myself and kind of posted this last thought in haste without explaining it.

It really doesn't belong in the post.

But I should have finished the thought by saying "playing the interval between the 3rd & 7th of a given chord, your ear will fill in the root."
And yes, playing with other instruments, their filling in the other parts would fulfill the function.

I should have used a word like "outline" or "sketch". Thank you for the correction! I will now return to my hamster wheel....
 

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