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CITES - What every bass player should know

#221
Turnaround said:
...The Gibson case is not entirely clear. They were charged with violation of the Lacey Act, but originally claimed innocence. They later capitulated. The violation was that they purchased wood illegally - that could mean that the wood was illegally harvested, or that the wood was on the CITES list and crossed international boundaries, or both...
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It is my reading of the NYT articles about this case that it was proven Gibson hadn't done due diligence on the source of the hardwoods they bought. It is illegal to buy contraband under Lacey, and it is the buyer's job to deal with that.

What Gibson purchased was hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of illegally harvested lumber that their supplier presented as legal—even though no other suppliers could obtain the same quality or quantity legally for ANY price.

That is pure Lacey Act, as the law details the buyer's role in such situations. CITES simply restricts ALL listed trade. You can't export, re-export, or import any post-treaty materials. There is not a buyer's or a seller's role in my understanding. There is only the movement of goods or the restriction of such to quash black markets down to an evil, but small, annoyance. AIMHO.
 
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#222
Jim Carr said:
Lacey Act case law is not my field, thank the Almighty. Is it yours? :D :D :D
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Heck no! But I think we are saying the same thing, just differently. An agreement between nations is not an enforceable law within the nation. The nation enacts laws that govern its population. Lacey is the Act used as American legislation in support of the international agreement. In Canada it's WAPPRIITA - sheesh, even the short form of the name is long!

I certainly don't know enough about the Gibson case to determine if it was CITES-based or pure Lacey. I defer to your knowledge on the subject. The extent of my direct experience concerning CITES is the American-made instruments that were held at the Canadian border. Even with official US government documentation it was dodgy for a while that we would ever see the instruments at the shop.
 
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#223
This is fricken ridiculous! Human beings can hop continent to continent but instruments made from certain woods can not? This is a prime example of those in charge needing to be under a charge.
 
#224
Basspolizei said:
This is fricken ridiculous! Human beings can hop continent to continent but instruments made from certain woods can not? This is a prime example of those in charge needing to be under a charge.
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Cool off there, pardner. I appreciate your frustration. However, I am sure you can understand that unrestricted trade in endangered species would guarantee extinction for many species of plants and animals, not to mention the introduction of invasive species that would also wipe out even more native wildlife.

Check out the amazing Palmyra Atoll Restoration Project:
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Musical instruments are benign in most people's eyes, glorious in ours, and just another piece of wood under the CITES treaty. Yet because of real problems that have arisen, efforts are being made by CITES and USFWS to help people get instrument passports for instruments with banned wood (or ivory), if they document that what their instruments contain was legally harvested before the current ban.

After all, we actually don't allow human beings to hop continents without a passport.

All that said, it is still a real headache—caused by greed, smugglers, and poachers, not by the USFWS, CITES, or the 190 or so nations who created and signed it.

Their are those who have instruments made with legally harvested protected wood (i.e., Brazilian Rosewood) who can not document the source of the wood. Those people appear to have no recourse. Their instruments, unless modified (or unless the wood's CITES status changes), must remain in the country they are now.
 
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#225
Turnaround said:
...An agreement between nations is not an enforceable law within the nation. The nation enacts laws that govern its population. Lacey is the Act used as American legislation in support of the international agreement...
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I am not sure, but it looks like that may not be the case. It appears in the U.S. to be mainly The Endangered Species Act. Check this from the Humane Society International:

How is CITES enforced?
The CITES Secretariat does not enforce the treaty. Instead, each Party has adopted so-called CITES implementing legislation—national laws that allow the Party to implement and enforce the treaty. In the United States, CITES is implemented and enforced primarily through the Endangered Species Act.

See: Invalid Link Removed
 
#226
Great work y'all! Cheers!

Butt. Don't get caught with your hand in the cookie-jar, as others have.

And…
* Fair Warning *

This thread, and the sound ideas expressed within it, may very well give you wood, perpetually!

:bassist:​
 
#227
OK. Here are links I have found on an AFM webpage about the Musical Instrument Passport process and supporting facts. http://www.afm.org/uploads/file/042014_pollard_noqr.pdf

The above URL from American Federation of Musicians also has an excellent article and concludes with these crucial links and a plea for action.

1) USFWS Musical Instrument Travel Permit Requirements
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2) USFWS International Musical Instrument Permit
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3) Federal Register Notice: Proposed New Musical Instrument Passport
http://tinyurl.com/kbzjrwt

4) US Department of Agriculture National Organic Banned Substances
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5) US Department of the Interior, Elephant Ivory Ban
http://tinyurl.com/qhlxd96

6) USFWS Q&A Guidance on Elephant Ivory and Musical Instruments
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Here is an amazing set of current (7/2014) news and resources from the League of American Orchestras:

http://americanorchestras.org/advocacy-government/travel-with-instruments/news.html

Here is a more up-to-date report on legislation by Alfonso M. Pollard, Legislative-Political Director of the American Federation of Musicians International, and author of the lead article and following 6 links in this post. We should all be grateful for the hardwork he and the AFM are doing. N.B. these links are for the public, not just AFM members.

http://ropaweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Legislative_Report_2014.pdf
 
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#228
All of my basses are older than 85. Genuine Brazilian Rosewood even on those with Ebony fingerboards. Hawaiian Koa is probably on the list in lumber sizes. Lumber sized pieces of the right rosewood were used for a select few guitar bodies in the 70s: the paperwork to get 1 back to the country of origin (USA) just this past year was very costly. Why must my love restrict me while others come & go as they please?
 
#229
BROCK WOOD said:
...Lumber sized pieces of the right rosewood were used for a select few guitar bodies in the 70s: the paperwork to get 1 back to the country of origin (USA) just this past year was very costly...
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Have you applied for CITES instrument permits?
 
#230
BROCK WOOD said:
...Hawaiian Koa is probably on the list in lumber sizes....
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Koa wood from Hawai'i [species Acacia Koa] is not listed in the CITES Appendices, and is reported by the IUCN (International Union for Conservation of Nature, see iucn.org) as being a species of least concern.
 
#231
BROCK WOOD said:
...Why must my love restrict me while others come & go as they please?
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I have a bass with a Brazilian Rosewood (dalbergia nigra) fingerboard. It was built in 2006 when CITES enforcement was less strict. I've learned that I may not be able to document the wood adequately for international travel.

Why, you ask? It has become necessary. No one is happy about it. The CITES (SIGH-tees) treaty, signed by ~200 nations, is currently our best tool to stop international traffic of endangered animals, plants, and products from them. We are fighting extinctions driven by poaching, illegal logging, and international smuggling (habitat loss is another matter).

According to a friend close to the USFWS, the crooks are no longer the local guys who want to sell a stolen tree to a shady dealer. Those little guys have mostly quit—driven out by the risks that shuttered the dealers in dalbergia nigra (seizures, fines, etc. due to the trade ban). The current class of poachers and smugglers are fewer but more greedy and dangerous. The ban actually drives prices up and makes enforcement more difficult. In the case of ivory, bullets fly.
 
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#232
Jim Carr said:
I am not sure, but it looks like that may not be the case. It appears in the U.S. to be mainly The Endangered Species Act. Check this from the Humane Society International:

How is CITES enforced?
The CITES Secretariat does not enforce the treaty. Instead, each Party has adopted so-called CITES implementing legislation—national laws that allow the Party to implement and enforce the treaty. In the United States, CITES is implemented and enforced primarily through the Endangered Species Act.

See: Invalid Link Removed
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Check the Fretboard Journal - they have been covering this for quite some time. They cite enforcement under the Lacey Act - or at least they did. Haven't caught their coverage for a while now.
 
#233
Turnaround said:
Check the Fretboard Journal - they have been covering this for quite some time. They cite enforcement under the Lacey Act - or at least they did. Haven't caught their coverage for a while now.
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Will do, thanks!

...light bulbs are coming on. Gibson was not in violation of CITES, just Lacey, but CITES violations are sometimes enforced under the Lacey Act. I think there are other statutes, too.
 
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#234
News...stirring the alphabet soup

Alfonso M. Pollard, the AFM Political Director and Diversity Director reports in the October 2014 edition of International Musician that talks are underway concerning instruments and regulations on entry and exit of designated animal and plant materials.

NAMM, the League of American Orchestras, the National Association of Violin and Bow Makers, and AFM are in talks with the White House Advisory Council on Wildlife Trafficking, and Members of Congress and staff to mitigate problems encountered by musicians traveling with instruments, and regulatory effects on the musical instrument industry.

These efforts are headlined "African Elephant Ivory Update," but the talks should shed some light on the "quagmire of travel permits, CITES regulations, APHIS (Animal and Plant Inspection Service of the Dept. of Agriculture) and USFWS (US Fish and Wildlife Service) requirements, and Homeland Security-Customs / Border Patrol coordination."

The AFM plans to make a one-stop informational website for musicians about travel requirements.

For now, the October 2014 International Musician article appears here:
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#235
FYI: Some recent Lacey Act info...Yes, it was passed in 1900, but significantly updated in 2008.

Here are a couple of environmentally-oriented (but informative) articles from a group fighting illegal logging.

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Our concerns seem small compared to the battles over tens of thousands of illegally exported and re-exported trees. Still, it also shows that we all have a stake in how governments conduct themselves in regard to international treaties.
 
#237
Didn't Yamaha make some basses a couple years ago that was some kind of really light weight composite. They liked nice and seemed to sound good but they had glowing knobs.

Maybe some forward thinking builder will be a pioneer in this area and make an amazing bad without using "wood" as we know it.
 
#240
hsech said:
Because if all good woods are banned there won't be anything left...
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Really? If all "good wood" is extinct, there never be a chance for the species to recover for use in a sustainable way.

Yeah, that's the ticket, let's remove all bans and restrictions on use of wildlife. Shoot the tigers, cut down all the sequoia, make billiard balls out of all the elephants, saw up the rain forests for coffee tables, boil all the lobsters, and fish out the seas. Fun, fun, fun.:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: Tongue in cheek. :woot::woot::woot:
 
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