CITES - What every bass player should know

[reverendrally]

Some arithmetic. Assume a typical price for a Dalbergia Negra fingerboard = $600 (a great price). Also assume a typical guitar ordinarily costs $200 retail. Yes, that's quite low.

So, 1,000,000 X 200 = $200,000,000 worth of guitars on the market in one year...

Jim, I didn't say there were 1,000,000 guitars produced with ebony or rosewood.

My point was this... because the overall production of guitars is 1,000,000 units, then that has a real impact on rain forest timbers. Whether it's ebony or rosewood is beside the point. Rain forests are still be depleted.

So like I said to begin with, if we could all be happy with guitars made of local, sustainable timbers (preferably recycled) then the problem would be a lot less serious. You and I also wouldn't have to worry about being effected by CITES legislation.

 

[Jim Carr]

...Unfortunately, musical instruments demand has placed huge pressure on rare timbers, specifically things like rosewood. The Chinese in particular have grown mass production of guitars to the point where they're consuming huge quantities of rainforest timbers...Whether I believe in tone-woods is besides the point. The problem is, many consumers do. Those that do, demand those timbers in new instruments...

...the worldwide demand for quality guitars has hit forests hard. The estimate in the report was that 1,000,000 guitars were produced worldwide in 2011. Where do you think most of them were made and what went into them? And until very recently, the Chinese companies didn't care who they bought timbers from or where it came from...

Jim, I didn't say there were 1,000,000 guitars produced with ebony or rosewood...

I hope you can connect the dots and see why I may have surmised otherwise. IMHO, it is clearly implicit in your argument.

 

[reverendrally]

No, Jim. It's not. Have a brewski and calm down.

 

[Jeff Scott]

 

[Jeff Scott]

A song for modern times!

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Much of the problem stems from a time when what we consider precious
& valuable was simply what was at hand at the time in the early stages of
industrialization. Cuban Mahogany was burned by the tons in S Florida
alone for every conceivable purpose from land clearing to forging metal.
It grew there naturally.
It is good that on a global, overall scale, people are more conscious of why
conservation is so important. It is good to allow the forests to regrow. It
is even good that the government wants to help - too bad the backwash
from any effort I recall out of the government is usually very bitter. I have
old instruments & I have bought wood from old harvests for instrument
repair / restoration. I even hope to use some of it to make a bass of my
own. Not going to try crossing borders.

I know of instruments made of 8/4 BR back in the 70s. Trying to export or
import those lovely artifacts can only be handled by experts. They are far
too valuable as an example of why conservation is so important as well as
the role each & every one of them actually played in history to leave to a
regular customs inspector or even me!

The bass in my sig......3 pieces of Koa, 2 of Maple & 2 of BR - not leaving my
hands until the coroner pries them away from it. It's a 78.

 

[Jim Carr]

...Not going to try crossing borders....

Me either—with the instrument below. I've pretty much resigned myself to keeping this Sadowsky (BR fingerboard) for "domestic use." Can we see some pics of your instrument(s)?
Do you have any documentation of the woods that are CITES listed?

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Brazilian Rosewood & Cuban Mahogany are at the top of the list. Honduran Mahogany is up there as well.
I don't have a complete list on account of my limited interest. Even without CITES there are concerns for
some woods. Hawaiian Koa now cannot be exported from that state as lumber - it has to be a finished
product to some degree. German Black Forest Maple is verboten. No more harvesting in any form.

Pics? Sure - not a single Rosewood bodied axe in my collection - but, they are all neckthrough & handcarved
with BR headstock covers.
Only 4 have Black Ebony fingerboards while the rest are BR. 1st pic, Koa neck & wings. 2nd pic: the project on the left is Honduran while the rest are combinations of Koa & Maple. 3rd pic: all are Honduran except the bass on the right that is Koa & Maple. 4th pic: Honduran can be very beautiful in the way it shimmers (very hard to photograph).

 

[Turnaround]

If anyone wants to check out what is listed in CITES, here's a link to a helpful site:

http://www.speciesplus.net/species

There are probably other sites as well.

 

[BROCK WOOD]

WOW! 20,334 lines of what?! This is gonna be a long week sorting & learning just what the hell...........

Good news! Only 14,663 of those are not animals. The first tree I came across, line 5747, is the Monkey Puzzle Tree, a Chilean pine that grows to 130' tall & 7' in diameter. It went on the endangered list in 1971 on account of it's use as lumber. The nuts are a valuable crop - but trees don't start production until 30 to 40 years of growth.

This could get extremely long..............so, I'll limit the highlights to most usable lumber.

While we wait for whatever comes of that, I did look up simply 'mahogany'. Honduran was placed on the CITES appendix II list in 2003. plantation mahogany grown in Asia is not restricted in trade. Major Asian countries which grow Swietenia macrophylla are India, Indonesia, Invalid Link Removed, Bangladesh, Fiji, Philippines, Singapore, and some others with India and Fiji being the major world suppliers. This means real Honduran IS restricted.

OK: Appendixes are I: ENDANGERED. Prohibited from export unless it is not commercial & permits from both countries can be provided. II: CONTROLLED TO PREVENT ENDANGERMENT. Permits are strongly suggested. III: Still need a permit, but it is political; thus it is the country that has the concern - as opposed to the entire world.

Back to the list........

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Well, there are 3 Cedrela on the list. Cedars that include Spanish Cedar. All are Class III but only 2 are considered endangered. Surprisingly Spanish Cedar is the vulnerable 1. Vulnerable being more common than endangered.
There are 3 Swietenia on the list. Mahoganies that include Honduran & Cuban. All are Class II. Only Cuban is endangered. The others are vulnerable.
59 different rosewoods so far are on the list. Brazilian & 1 other are the only Class I - but that is a lot of Class II & III wood including Cocobolo.
If this research proves popular, I'll continue posting......................

 

[Jim Carr]

I think more information about the differences between being listed in Appendices I, II, or III (and how the musically important rosewoods, ebonies, mahoganies, cocobolo, and pernambuco are affected by those listings) has been our main focus so far—but more summary, discussion, and detail are all needed.

There has been a lot of complaining and finger-pointing, but probably not enough actual explaining of what the treaties do. In fact, a lot of us seem to be confused as to how it all works, let alone why is has come to be.

 

[Jeff Scott]

... probably not enough actual explaining of what the treaties do. In fact, a lot of us seem to be confused as to how it all works, let alone why is has come to be.

That may be very deliberate..................

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Found an article that is enlightening for musicians!
Invalid Link Removed

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Another good article!
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Oh! I'm still breaking down the woods on the CITES list into common language with a cross reference to the Red List. It just gets boring so fast & is in a language that has no meaning to musicians. It will take a while to learn all this.

 

[Jim Carr]

I have been hoping this thread might get posts from someone who has succeeded in getting one of the instrument passports. Check my earlier posts. I found all the forms and got started on the process, only to discover when I contacted my builder, that my instrument's Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard could not be documented as having been imported before the ban or shown to be from old recycled finished goods like a table.

 

[Tom Bomb]

Another good article!
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Oh! I'm still breaking down the woods on the CITES list into common language with a cross reference to the Red List. It just gets boring so fast & is in a language that has no meaning to musicians. It will take a while to learn all this.

I know where you're coming from. Thanks for all the effort though. Nice work. And, good luck with it all if you should indulge any further. Sounds like there's a book in there somewhere if any kind of clarity can be generated from it all, for us poor old musos and bedraggled artisans.

But, for me, for now, it's all headed for the Too-hard-basket. It's a lovely Too-hard-basket, been in the family for years - fashioned, I believe, out of Invalid Link Removed

 

[Jim Carr]

...Sounds like there's a book in there somewhere if any kind of clarity can be generated from it all, for us poor old musos and bedraggled artisans. But, for me, for now, it's all headed for the Too-hard-basket...

...and there are a lot of organisms that are headed toward the "too hard-basket." It's the world we have made. We could rage and run. Or?
Don't despair. There is too much of that already. I prefer to try to understand, to engage, and fight for what I see as right.

 

[Clammy]

Brazilian Rosewood & Cuban Mahogany are at the top of the list. Honduran Mahogany is up there as well.
I don't have a complete list on account of my limited interest. Even without CITES there are concerns for
some woods. Hawaiian Koa now cannot be exported from that state as lumber - it has to be a finished
product to some degree. German Black Forest Maple is verboten. No more harvesting in any form.

Pics? Sure - not a single Rosewood bodied axe in my collection - but, they are all neckthrough & handcarved
with BR headstock covers.
Only 4 have Black Ebony fingerboards while the rest are BR. 1st pic, Koa neck & wings. 2nd pic: the project on the left is Honduran while the rest are combinations of Koa & Maple. 3rd pic: all are Honduran except the bass on the right that is Koa & Maple. 4th pic: Honduran can be very beautiful in the way it shimmers (very hard to photograph).View attachment 507487 View attachment 507483 View attachment 507484 View attachment 507486

That is one beauty of a vintage BCR collection you have there, Brock!

Cheers!

 

[BROCK WOOD]

Good hearing from you Clammy! Thanks for the compliment! If I could line
them all up like your bass amp collection? I could show them all LOL. Just
put a few up for the sake of the topic ;-)