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CITES - What every bass player should know
- Thread starter Turnaround
- Start date
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I thought that Larrivee summed it up nice and succinctly: Larrivée Guitars - CITES AMENDMENT FOR ROSEWOOD - News
Sadly what they're saying isn't 100% correct. The Larrivée website says:
"After November 28th 2019, no CITES permit is required when shipping or travelling with a Rosewood Guitar."
While this may be correct with regards to CITES it also requires the countries you're travelling between to have actually implemented the changes. I doubt a single country will have implemented the changes by Nov 28th. Which means that crossing international borders with rosewood may still be illegal and your guitar may still get confiscated.
Exactly when the CITES amendments will be implemented in each country around the world is anyones guess. I asked my local enviromental agency and they could not give me an anwer, except that it would 100% NOT happen by Nov 28th. Sometimes next year seems more likely.
It's also worth mentioning that CITES member nations can still choose to keep the restrictions on rosewood. The changes only PERMITS them to lift restrictions, it does not necessarily mean they have to do it and says nothing about when, except that it can't happen BEFORE Nov 28th.
For everyone's information and benefit here is my current October 2019 experience as a Canadian seller to a USA buyer:
- USA buyer A and me/seller reach sales agreement, Cites permit obtained and ready to ship once payment is made
- USA buyer A backs out, me/seller sits with the Cites permit and bass waiting for next buyer
- USA buyer B arrives. Cites needs a) the original permit returned to them with a hand signed letter describing how buyer A is out of the picture and please change the permit to buyer B's details b) seller mails the permit and hand signed letter back to Cites in Gatineau Quebec c) Cites mails the seller the revised permit with buyer B's details now on the permit
-The whole "mail back the old wrong permit and mail me a revised new and improved permit" took 12 business days.
Special thanks to buyer A for assisting me walk down this path, because of this I can now share my experience and knowledge with my fellow bassists. I have made the best if this by being able to share my information with the talkbass community.
- USA buyer A and me/seller reach sales agreement, Cites permit obtained and ready to ship once payment is made
- USA buyer A backs out, me/seller sits with the Cites permit and bass waiting for next buyer
- USA buyer B arrives. Cites needs a) the original permit returned to them with a hand signed letter describing how buyer A is out of the picture and please change the permit to buyer B's details b) seller mails the permit and hand signed letter back to Cites in Gatineau Quebec c) Cites mails the seller the revised permit with buyer B's details now on the permit
-The whole "mail back the old wrong permit and mail me a revised new and improved permit" took 12 business days.
Special thanks to buyer A for assisting me walk down this path, because of this I can now share my experience and knowledge with my fellow bassists. I have made the best if this by being able to share my information with the talkbass community.
A few questions if you don't mind. What kind of wood/s were involved? Did the buyer have to get a US permit to import? It took 2 weeks to get the initial permit? Thanks.
Hello Matti777 in the city of champions. Go back to page 23 of this thread and see the details I typed out on how to do the initial permit / how long the initial permit takes. What I am discussing here on page 42 of this thread is the situation where I have the permit but the buyer for that initial permit has become a ghost....so I need the permit amended/changed/revised once a second USA buyer arrives.
As a Canadian seller obtaining the Cites permit.....the USA buyer has nothing to do for the permit.... other than provide his name , address, phone number and email address.
As for the woods involved go to the Cites website and investigate: Invalid Link Removed
As a Canadian seller obtaining the Cites permit.....the USA buyer has nothing to do for the permit.... other than provide his name , address, phone number and email address.
As for the woods involved go to the Cites website and investigate: Invalid Link Removed
So, this whole permit thingy needs to be specific to the parties involved in the transaction?!?! I thought the permit was for the instrument. itself, and only about itself. Sounds like this process gets pretty messy if not ALL things are in place for the transaction to take place.
And that's why even though I live in Michigan, I will not ship to Canada. Sucks, but I'm not dealing with all of that.
Is there any way to find out when cites will be modified in different countries? I've been trying to grab a bass from Japan but cant until cites is lifted there.
The changes to the CITES treaty that we’ve been discussing in the last few pages of this thread become a part of the treaty at the end of November 2019. It’s then up to each country to make changes to its own laws or regulations if and when they see fit. Whether or when a given country makes these changes is up to the the appropriate authority in that country. In the United States, that’s the US fish & Wildlife Service. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
When it comes to figuring out who the responsible authority is in another country, Google is your friend. All we can do is hope that each country we are trying to do business with keeps their websites updated. For what it’s worth, there’s nothing about the recent amendment yet at the US Fish and Wildlife site.
When it comes to figuring out who the responsible authority is in another country, Google is your friend. All we can do is hope that each country we are trying to do business with keeps their websites updated. For what it’s worth, there’s nothing about the recent amendment yet at the US Fish and Wildlife site.
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Nobody knows. I have been told by good authority that these kind of changes typically take around a year to implement in the EU. I have no idea how things work in the rest of the world but I hope the changes are somehow coordinated between CITES member countries. If not we could end up with a situation where one country no longer issues export permits because they've implemented the changes while another country still requires you to submit the export permit in your application for an import permit. Which would be impossible when the first country no longer issues export permits.
I fear a messy transition period and I personally don't expect the changes to take effect anywhere until late 2020.
There's a shocking amount of misinformation about CITES on guitar related websites at the moment. I've seen many poor, misleading cut&paste articles by people who clearly have no knowledge about this subject whatsoever. Even many dealers and manufacturers seem to think it will be possible to ship rosewood internationally without CITES permits after November 26th. This is NOT the case. CITES export/import permits will still be required until further notice. November 26th is just the date when the new exeptions for rosewood are added to CITES appendix B and has nothing to do with when these changes legally take effect in countries around the world.
It is also important to remember that although the new exeptions for rosewood are important to us musicians it is still a very minor part of CITES and politics in general. It will hardly be the number one priority for governments around the world to satisfy our GAS for rosewood. It will happen eventually but don't hold your breath.
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Great news, I have been informed today via email by Canadian Cites that I no longer require a permit to ship a bass containing rosewood (except brazilian rosewood) to the USA.... and all my pending or on hold permits have been cancelled .
That is great news, but these headlines are a bit misleading because the CITES restrictions on Brazilian rosewood remain full effect. Consequently, international sales of instruments containing Brazilian rosewood is still prohibited.
WARMOTH SEZ: Rosewood is shipping internationally!
Thanks to recent changes enacted by CITES, beginning November 26, 2019 Rosewood bodies and necks are now exempt from CITES regulation and no longer require permits for international shipment. This means Kingwood, Cocobolo, and Bubinga are shipping again too!
The time to grab that exotic neck or body you've been jonesing for is now!
Invalid Link Removed
Thanks to recent changes enacted by CITES, beginning November 26, 2019 Rosewood bodies and necks are now exempt from CITES regulation and no longer require permits for international shipment. This means Kingwood, Cocobolo, and Bubinga are shipping again too!
The time to grab that exotic neck or body you've been jonesing for is now!
Invalid Link Removed
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Well that's great news except that as far as I can tell it isn't correct (but please correct me if I'm wrong).
I won't rule out the possibility that some countries may have implemented the changes from the earliest possible date (Nov 26) but I think most countries still require CITES import/export licenses for all kinds of rosewood in musical instruments.
I obviously don't have detailed information for every country around the world but as far as I can tell the EU has NOT implemented the changes. EU residents should double check this info from Warmoth with their local authorities before they risk having their instruments confiscated by customs and destroyed, plus potentially be prosecuted for illegal import of an endagered species.
I would love to be wrong about this but can ANYONE confirm that the EU has actually implemented the changes? Or the US for that matter? I contacted the environmental authorities in my country last week about this and they said changes like these usually take around 1 year to implement in the EU and no date is known yet. Until further notice CITES import/export permits are still needed.
The Thomann website also says the restrictions for rosewood still apply and I quote:
"In the European Union, these changes will only come into force upon publication of the amended annexes to Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97. The date of publication is as yet unknown."
So Warmoth, where do you get your information from? US authorities? There certainly a lot of misleading information out there but you need to be 100% sure before you make these kind of statements to your overseas customers.
That’s exactly right. CITES is a treaty that sets minimum standards. Any country is free to impose more rigorous standards than the treaty requires. And each country has decide whether and when to adopt the new changes that pertain to the rosewoods (other than Brazilian).
