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Clamp Alternative (meathead thinking outside the box)

Hey guys. This forum has been a wealth of knowledge so far. Thanks for sharing all that you do.

I’m getting ready to try my hand at a basic build from scratch. When gluing a top or neck/fingerboard, what do you think about using weights (45 and 25lb cast iron flat gym plates) instead of clamps. Seems like you could get better, more consistent pressure and you’d be able to use the exact amount of pressure recommended by the glue manufacturer. Of course it would be done on a known flat surface.

I have clamps, just wondering what your expert opinions are on this. Thought it would be an interesting experiment as I’m not using any exotic woods yet. Just trying my hand with some basic Home Depot stuff.

Thanks.
 
It takes more clamping pressure than most people realize to get an optimal glue joint. Titebond reccommends around 200 psi for hardwoods. That would be a lot of plates to glue on a top.
The plates I have. I could load 4 - 45lb plates on a top. Just trying to figure out the feasibility of it.

I appreciate the response and the info. Thanks!
 
The main function of the clamps is to hold the two pieces together in the exact right position and without motion. So yes, weighting a wood glue joint is perfectly possible. I've done it several times and gotten good strong joints.

And I've never tried to use anything near 200 psi. For a 10"x10" top that would amount to 200x10x10=20000 lbs. I'm quite sure my workbench would collapse under that weight, and probably the concrete floor under it as well.
 
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Can you load 4 45lb plates per square inch? Because "psi" means pounds per square inch (lbs/in**2) (about 19 tons for a 12x16 inch top, for example)

Epoxies require much less pressure. Vacuum bagging at 15 psi or less is quite adequate.

The main function of the clamps is to hold the two pieces together in the exact right position and without motion. So yes, weighting a wood glue joint is perfectly possible. I've done it several times and gotten good strong joints.

And I've never tried to use anything near 200 psi. For a 10"x10" top that would amount to 200x10x10=20000 lbs. I'm quite sure my workbench would collapse under that weight, and probably the concrete floor under it as well.
Good points. I guess I’ll stick (no pun intended) with the tried and true method.
 
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And I've never tried to use anything near 200 psi. For a 10"x10" top that would amount to 200x10x10=20000 lbs.
That may sound like a lot, but clamps can achieve this quite easily. A simple iron 4"-6" C-clamp that you can buy for a few bucks has typically a holding capacity of 2000lbs, steel C-clamps can go way higher than that (6000-7000lbs). So, using ten clamps for gluing on the top you'd get your 200psi. The more important issue is distributing the pressure across the joint, for example using a flat board on top of the top to spread out the force.

Bottom line: it's so much easier to accomplish clamping pressure with clamps than with weights. Also, when you have clamped the joint, you can take your workpiece off your workbench and have space to work on something else.
 
Fine Woodworking has a good article on the subject of clamping glued joints. I would bet that the recommended clamping loads are rarely achieved on a large area joint like a top on a solid body, but it doesn't matter because that joint sees very little stress.

That may sound like a lot, but clamps can achieve this quite easily. A simple iron 4"-6" C-clamp that you can buy for a few bucks has typically a holding capacity of 2000lbs, steel C-clamps can go way higher than that (6000-7000lbs). So, using ten clamps for gluing on the top you'd get your 200psi. The more important issue is distributing the pressure across the joint, for example using a flat board on top of the top to spread out the force.

Bottom line: it's so much easier to accomplish clamping pressure with clamps than with weights. Also, when you have clamped the joint, you can take your workpiece off your workbench and have space to work on something else.
Thank you both for the info. I’ll check out that article after I go through all the stickies. I’m sure I’ll have a million questions and issues as I under take this.

On another note. I stopped by the Habitat for Humanity Re-Store and picked up a scrap piece of 5/4” mahogany for 75 cents. Should make a good practice piece. It looked bad but cleaned up pretty nice. I’ll prob start a new thread documenting my impending misery, I mean project.
 

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Harbor freight, and in the rare case the clamp doesn’t work, they’ll give you another, no questions.

You can never have too many clamps.

I’ve gotten clever with screws, bolts, wedges, and bottle jacks. Bar clamps just make things so much easier. They can be long enough for cab projects.
 
I think whatever gets enough pressure should be fine. When I built my 6 string 20 years ago, I glued up the body, set a piece of plywood on the garage floor and set another piece of thick plywood on top. Then I jacked up my suv, slid the body under one of the tires, dropped the suv back on the ground and waited 24 hours. Worked great!
mybass.jpg
 
The only downside would be the glue joints slipping. Hard to see under the weights.

I will echo that buying even the cheapest clamps will be most beneficial.

I would think the bare minimum would be at least 6 or more clamps to get you started.
Get longer length than you think you'll need, longer clamps will work fine on smaller stuff, but not the other way.

Good luck,
Dirk
 
Here's an alternative, if you'd rather spend some time building something, than money buying clamps. This is a universal body clamping rig that I built almost 30 years ago. It was under a workbench collecting dust, but Jeremy recently pulled it out and used it. It still works fine.

img_0166-scaled.jpg


Here's the explanation of this old scary-looking rig, pulled from one of Freekmagnet's threads:

Yeah, Jeremy was planning out how to clamp up the top on this body, and I pointed out a bunch of dusty contraptions tucked under a bench in Unit 2. An ancient gluing fixture that I thought up and built back around 1993. When I was 28 years younger and just getting going as a Luthier. Fixtures from my youth, rediscovered!

It's really four separate fixtures; he's using three of them above. Each one is a fairly strong frame with two rows of 7 jacking bolts. Lined up in a row, they form a grid of 56 clamps covering the whole area of an instrument body. And they are all individually adjustable, so you can make sure the whole area is clamped down tightly, even if the top is a bit uneven. They also work for gluing a small area in the middle of a body, like a patch block in a pickup rout. It's a universal body top gluing fixture.

The jacking bolts are standard 1/4-20 x 5" bolts. Each one has a 1/4-20 T-nut pressed up into the underside cross beam. I made 1" wide strips of 3/4" MDF with saw kerfs cut in them, to be the pads that the bolts press down onto. But, you can put smaller chunks of wood in there for clamping specific areas. The frames are made from 2 x 4's. Real simple construction.

Yes, we use an electric drill with a 7/16" socket to quickly spin the bolts down. That's a lot of bolts! And a 7/16" Nutdriver to tighten them.

You are all welcome to copy the design and make your own version. This fixture works very well for one-off jobs clamping a thin top on a body. It's kind of slow, but it can be finely adjusted. For my own Scroll Basses, I built the Stacked Platen fixture set. It's much faster, and can handle up to 4 bodies at a time.

That's why these fixtures were sitting under a bench, covered with dust and sawdust. I don't use them often anymore, but I keep them ready and waiting for an unusual job to come along......like Jeremy's bass!

Bishop JP asked if a fixture like this could also be used for clamping thin curved tops:

Yes, this style of fixture would work well for clamping a thin top to a curved surface. You can put small wood block pads under each bolt tip in highly curved areas, or use longer strips of wood with saw kerfs on more gentle curves. You could even make the whole fixture especially to fit a curved shape, by angling the bolts out at the ends of each row. To whatever contour you want.

As you can see, the construction is real easy. Six pieces of 2 x 4 screwed together. Drill 9/32" holes through the upper beams for the bolts, and press 1/4-20 T-nuts in on the bottom side.

The thread where Jeremy uses it is here:

Sirena Instrumentos Musicales - Expositions and Aspirations Regarding Luthiery in Fillmore, CA
 
For reference, this is the clamping rig I use to glue the tops and backs of my Scroll Bass bodies together. Compared to the scary rig above, this one is much faster to clamp up, and does multiple bodies at once. It's a Platen Stack clamping fixture. Multiple heavy flat platens, stacked up with bodies between them, and one set of clamps on the whole stack. It saves a lot of clamps and bench space too.

Here, I've got three walnut bodies stacked between four platens. Each platen is made from three layers of 3/4" MDF, sawn to approximately the shape of the body, glued together. They are pretty heavy and stay nice and flat. The bottom platen has two MDF strips attached to it, spacing it up off the bench. That makes it easy to slip the clamps under the bottom edge. I made enough platens that I can do up to 6 bodies at a time.

The white stuff hanging out under each body is a sheet of thin packing foam, rough cut a little larger than the body. That catches most of the glue squeeze-out. They get reused many times.

Here, I'm using 9 standard Jorgenson bar clamps on the stack. That's enough clamping force for these bodies. I'm gluing them with West Systems epoxy.

If I were gluing them with Titebond, I'd use heavier clamps, probably Pony-style clamps.

IMG_5713B.jpg


I built this rig back in the late '90's, and it's clamped every Scroll Bass body since then. It works very well.