Class D Amps - Anyone else having second thoughts?

[Mark Olson]

My feelings about things haven't changed. I love amps. Well, tube amps. Those are the ones I get excited about. If someone offered me a free Markbass or what have you amp I'd just feel like "oh. well i guess. can i sell it?". I just can't get excited about class D amps. The tonal goals of most class D amps I've seen run totally contrary to my own tonal goals, they're just the wrong tool for my job, it'd be like trying to hammer a nail with a pencil.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm sorry, but you're using an a$$load of Ampeg wonderfulness with a sansamp? Why?

because it's either that or you have to use some crap direct box that sounds nothing like your amp. at least the sansamp pedals actually sound like the real thing now. i love 'em. i use them with my ampegs all the time. got a vt for hard overdrive, and a british pedal for a light breakup. can't really tell it's on in the mix but it makes everything stick together all nice like 60's. through a tube amp they rock. hard.

 

[Growly Lytes]

Hey JimmyM you sorta sound like me. Im using the RBI & RPM, each has its place for what im doing but the main thing is that they actually sound really good & they are Lyte too.
Tell me how you can go wrong with a Sansamp ?? Doesnt matter what its infront or behind of its gonna sound good or great even.

 

[MetroBass]

First off, let me just say: " I am not a tube snob!! I'm a tone snob!

I very much appreciate all the responses and rhetoric regarding the OP. Very informative and a bit controversial at times. However, I did mentioned I have owned and tried several Mrk bass and GB Class D amps and haven't been that impressed.

I'm continuing my quests for a "lighter" weight amp and think I've goy some good advice from this thread on where to head. After stumbling upon the Baer Amps I think I might be sold. His thread regarding amp topology was very helpful as well as how an engineer creates and designs the voice of an amp. Bear has chosen A/B for a reason that I agree with, as has Mesa/Boogie. The Baer Valkyrie and Mesa Boogie M series and WAB seem to be legitimate contestants. Cheers!!

 

[bombpop14]

Thanks Jimmy...you beat me to it. Often the F.O.H. guy will have a generic D.I. or worse,
and honestly I choose not to mike my cab because I'm prone to knocking it over, changing my volume etc....and if I have a amp issue (ahem svt4 pro) I'm good to go.
I'm about consistent quality sound

 

[agedhorse]

Most DI's are pretty darn neutral sounding... assuming you are using the right tool for the job. Certainly more neutral and consistent than the difference between mics or placement.

 

[bombpop14]

That's exactly why I use my sansamp d.i. every time, and why my next rig will be a genz benz 2x12 neo or two, and a shuttle of some kind. I think this will be the new "goodness"
standard for the new millenium. Class d & neo are the future, at least till something better comes along.

 

[JimmyM]

Most DI's are pretty darn neutral sounding... assuming you are using the right tool for the job. Certainly more neutral and consistent than the difference between mics or placement.

that's the problem, andy otoh, it's probably not necessary in most di's since those of us who use modelers have our own stuff we like. still, i'd consider it a selling point if a di in an amp did good modeling of tube tones. i would actually appreciate it if the damn svt di would do it, too! i can't believe it has no way of going through the ot for a di.

 

[burnunit]

good luck with that one. nearly all the pres that people think are "transparent" have a voicing that is anything but, and having a "transparent" cab is impossible.

I completely agree with this - between the ideal and the real, there is a "great gulf fixed", still I am reasonably happy with what I am getting out of my LMII/Schroeder mini stack.

 

[burnunit]

and some people can't tell which colors are which... those people are called color blind

Gratuitous - enjoy your tone, I will enjoy mine.

 

[aborgman]

good luck with that one. nearly all the pres that people think are "transparent" have a voicing that is anything but, and having a "transparent" cab is impossible.

Having a truly transparent anything is impossible.

Having a cab that is transparent within the human hearing range (and within the limits of human hearing) isn't impossible - it's just limited.

Happy with a max volume of 70dB SPL? You can do it pretty transparently. Want to hit 100dB? Not so much.

 

[lowendfriend]

This is an argument like vinyl vs CD's/MP3's.

Watts are watts. Bandwidth is bandwidth. Tubes have a compression characteristic that you can emulate with a pedal or pre-amp. EQ reflects the shape of the response vs. frequency.

I'm not denying that there aren't qualities of a particular amp that "does it for you".

But we tend to attribute all sorts of artistic overtones to this technical discussion that are frankly, IMHO, Your Humble Opinion.

Reliability, linearity, reasonable cost, low weight and tons of gain will do it everytime for me.

 

[Ric Vice]

First off, let me just say: " I am not a tube snob!! I'm a tone snob!

Point well taken, I think we are all looking for good tone. In my case, the B-15N I used for a long time is sitting in the house, probably because it weighs 80 lbs, and only puts out 25 watts. It has a great sound, but once I moved to a Walter Woods MI-100-8 I never looked back. It sounded very much like the Ampeg B-15 with four times the power and weighed 7 lbs. I don't have that amplifier now, but I still have a Woods MI-400-8 and a Woods Ultra. The MI-400-8 sounds very similar to a tube amp. The problem is that to get a solid state amp to emulate a tube amp is a very expensive proposition. The MI-400-8 cost $1,500.00 in 1994, was an analog amplifier, the just had a switching power supply.

I very much appreciate all the responses and rhetoric regarding the OP. Very informative and a bit controversial at times. However, I did mentioned I have owned and tried several Mrk bass and GB Class D amps and haven't been that impressed.

My experience was pretty much the same. Mostly because I didn't like the pre amp voicing of the Little Mark II on DB. I did have a GK 200MB that sounded very good, but it was a 50 watt combo.

I'm continuing my quests for a "lighter" weight amp and think I've goy some good advice from this thread on where to head. After stumbling upon the Baer Amps I think I might be sold. His thread regarding amp topology was very helpful as well as how an engineer creates and designs the voice of an amp. Bear has chosen A/B for a reason that I agree with, as has Mesa/Boogie. The Baer Valkyrie and Mesa Boogie M series and WAB seem to be legitimate contestants. Cheers!!

Ric

 

[seamonkey]

My feelings about things haven't changed. I love amps. Well, tube amps. Those are the ones I get excited about. If someone offered me a free Markbass or what have you amp I'd just feel like "oh. well i guess. can i sell it?". I just can't get excited about class D amps. The tonal goals of most class D amps I've seen run totally contrary to my own tonal goals, they're just the wrong tool for my job, it'd be like trying to hammer a nail with a pencil.

The goal of a "head" is to create a signature sound for the maker - it doesn't matter what class of amp they use. The maker is coloring the amp/pre-amp to have a sound they think will sell.

A class-d power amp, is just that - it just amplifies. You, nor anybody can hear a difference in a true blind test.

 

[svtb15]

If you are set on 212 GB.. dont forget to try the Uber212... its mighty..
My friend uses a neox212 .. fits in the back seat of his car and literally rocks the room and able to be heard down the block...
he is (fishtx)
You being an Ampeg artist should check out their SVT7... Dino says he likes his alot..

I have made my Genz Shuttle 9 my main amp.. it does almost all gigs with me and fly dates too...
just got bakc from a fly date this week .. it went right in my gig bag... It has plenty of meaty bottom... not missing my other SS amps at all...

That's exactly why I use my sansamp d.i. every time, and why my next rig will be a genz benz 2x12 neo or two, and a shuttle of some kind. I think this will be the new "goodness"
standard for the new millenium. Class d & neo are the future, at least till something better comes along.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Well, now you know four

Really, switching power supplies are not all that difficult to fix. Class D amps aren't too hard either but usually it's less costly to replace the entire class D section because of the economies of scale when building large quantities.
.

I must admit that to me SM supplies are a bit of a black art. I did my engineering with tubes and relays. I have repaired a few SWPS but I'll be the first to admit more by luck than good management.

<sigh> I hate getting old!

Paul

 

[agedhorse]

I must admit that to me SM supplies are a bit of a black art. I did my engineering with tubes and relays. I have repaired a few SWPS but I'll be the first to admit more by luck than good management.

<sigh> I hate getting old!

Paul

It's really not so bad once you break the stages apart. Try reading up on the SMPS modulation control IC's, the application notes give a good insight into the art behind the science.

- Input rectifier and filters
- Switching of HVDC into primary of SMPS transformer
- Output HF rectification and filtering
- feedback for regulation or HV foldback
- protection sensing and shutdown schemes.

 

[pgk]

Class D Amps - Anyone else having second thoughts?

i've never had a first thought; i've yet to play bass thru a class d amp that i liked even a little, let alone consider buying one. i've used the markbass lm2 in some gig situations and was Very unimpressed. one room was an upstairs load-in, the rig was already there so i tried it. i had plenty of time to fiddle with the knobs but it sounded and felt like i was playing thru a modeler, that dis-connected from reality feeling even the best modelers give you. plenty loud but...i'm not writing them off class d stuff altogether. but i've yet to play thru one where i went "wow". not even close to wow, not yet that is, so i'll stick to my trad "led sled" all tube and ss designs. the weight advantages of class d i could care less about

 

[pgk]

I submit that in a double-blind test, you (or the rest of us) would not be able to distinguish a Class D from a Class A/B, or other amplifier topology, whether tubes or solid state devices were used. I imply of course proper gain-matching.

oh god, here we go. i suggest you go ahead conduct just such a truly unbiased test and Then let's see what's what. don't use conjecture as you are here but do that test to put some teeth in your theory, or not. my reality, using that stuff in real world situations, has been very different than from just mere speculation...

 

[Passinwind]

Class D Amps - Anyone else having second thoughts?

i've never had a first thought; i've yet to play bass thru a class d amp that i liked even a little, let alone consider buying one. i've used the markbass lm2 in some gig situations and was Very unimpressed.

The LMII is Class AB.