Clones of the Clone Theory?

[blindrabbit]

My never-ending chorus quest continues...

For all the outstanding modern chorus pedals out there - Warped Vinyl, Polytope, Cosmichorus, even the Corona and all its permutations - there seems to be a lack of builders who are looking to recreate the vintage chorus tones of the 80s. I'm thinking specifically of tones like what Peter Hook got in Joy Division and New Order.

Now, we know he used (and still uses) the Clone Theory for his tones. There is also lots of love that still exists for the Boss CE-1/CE-2/CE-2b, but that is a slightly different tonal family. However, at least for Boss I see that TC has released CE-1 and CE-2 Toneprints, which is very cool. Nothing for the Clone Theory though.

I'm curious what people out there who have actually owned and used the Clone Theory find to be acceptable modern pedals that can cop that tone. Is the new Stereo Clone Theory the way to go, or just a Small Clone? Has anyone put together a Toneprint that will pull this off? I'd love to find a pedal that has a small footprint, standard power requirements, and simple controls but with the lush, rich sounds of the Clone Theory.

 

[handofseven]

I've got a modern EHX Clone Theory. Dig it, but it's a bit on the noisy side. I tried a few other pedals to try and cop the same sound, including the SA Orbital, Tech 21 Bass Boost Chorus and the Sea Machine. I found the Tech 21 BBC to come closest, but in the end I still have the Clone Theory and a Boss CE 5. For whatever reason, I seem to gravitate back to those (I'd probably invest in an Orbital again though). I hear that the AnalogMan Chorus is "the best" at producing that lush chorus sound... I just haven't come to the point of wanting to spend that much cash to get there... yet.

 

[MGR]

Since EH still makes the Clone Theory and it is only $100, it's doubtful that there would be a huge market for clones. I had a Stereo Electric Mistress which has a chorus part on it, and it was very nice on bass. i don't know if that circuit is a clone theory though. EH is still using the same designs as the original, so I'd say if you want that sound, just go to Amazon and order one. I have never been able to discern much of a difference between my vintage 1970's Small Stone and my 2014 Nano Small Stone, so I bet your experience with the clone theory will be the same.

With regards to the CE-1, that's a much different story because the original is out of production. Retro-Sonic makes supposedly the best clone, but it's $300 bucks. Hardly worth it for a pedal that probably should be used very sparingly on bass.

I'd just go for a new, fresh, in the box, original Clone Theory and be done with it.

 

[MGR]

 

[MGR]

 

[MGR]

And finally, someone here selling one.

For Sale/Trade - vintage ehx small clone, DOD Overdrive reissue, Boss ceb-3 | TalkBass.com

 

[Driven Crane]

Tech21 Bass Boost Chorus has got its special sound, and you can get the Hooky sound as well as a sound of Simon Gallup - it can be read in manual. Tech21 Boost Chorus (guitar version) can deliver Clone Theory sound also - just need to read its manual.

 

[blindrabbit]

I've got a modern EHX Clone Theory. Dig it, but it's a bit on the noisy side. I tried a few other pedals to try and cop the same sound, including the SA Orbital, Tech 21 Bass Boost Chorus and the Sea Machine. I found the Tech 21 BBC to come closest, but in the end I still have the Clone Theory and a Boss CE 5. For whatever reason, I seem to gravitate back to those (I'd probably invest in an Orbital again though). I hear that the AnalogMan Chorus is "the best" at producing that lush chorus sound... I just haven't come to the point of wanting to spend that much cash to get there... yet.

Yeah, the Analogman is supposedly based off the Small Clone. I tried one out locally a few months ago, and strangely enough I didn't like how it sounded at all - in a direct A/B test, the Corona slayed it. It has been decades since I've tried a Boss chorus out, so maybe I need to look into one of those. I think I'll also give a Small Clone and/or modern Clone Theory a test at the local store and see what they are like.

The Sea Machine I have now *might* have that sort of tone in there, but the damn thing is so complex, I can't figure out how to find it! The Orbital I had sounded lovely, but again it was a bit intimidating with all the flexibility it had. I may consider getting one again though, I was pleased with it, as I was with my Corona, but I can't say that either one of them truly knocked it out of the park and made me weak in the knees with their chorus tones.

AFAIK, the modern Clone Theory is not exactly the same as the vintage one. Some of the controls are slightly different, and people who have done direct comparisons claim to find the older one to be warmer and more lush, albeit with a good dose of noise. Peter Hook says he owns something like 13 different units since they keep crapping out on him. However, the fact he sticks with the old ones says to me that maybe he also doesn't find the new circuit to be an exact copy.

I've seen that the RetroSonic CE-1 clone exists, but I've not been able to find one for sale. It also looks as though it would be $$$.

 

[handofseven]

Keep in mind, I have the Boss CE5 because it's different, not because it's like a Clone Theory at all.

Andrew has an OG Clone Theory, and I'd have to say it is definitely a bit nicer sounding than the modern CT. Still, the new one is close enough for me. Both are noisy.

 

[MGR]

Yeah, the Analogman is supposedly based off the Small Clone. I tried one out locally a few months ago, and strangely enough I didn't like how it sounded at all - in a direct A/B test, the Corona slayed it. It has been decades since I've tried a Boss chorus out, so maybe I need to look into one of those. I think I'll also give a Small Clone and/or modern Clone Theory a test at the local store and see what they are like.

The Sea Machine I have now *might* have that sort of tone in there, but the damn thing is so complex, I can't figure out how to find it! The Orbital I had sounded lovely, but again it was a bit intimidating with all the flexibility it had. I may consider getting one again though, I was pleased with it, as I was with my Corona, but I can't say that either one of them truly knocked it out of the park and made me weak in the knees with their chorus tones.

AFAIK, the modern Clone Theory is not exactly the same as the vintage one. Some of the controls are slightly different, and people who have done direct comparisons claim to find the older one to be warmer and more lush, albeit with a good dose of noise. Peter Hook says he owns something like 13 different units since they keep crapping out on him. However, the fact he sticks with the old ones says to me that maybe he also doesn't find the new circuit to be an exact copy.

I've seen that the RetroSonic CE-1 clone exists, but I've not been able to find one for sale. It also looks as though it would be $$$.

I hear what you're saying about old vs new pedlas and their sound differences, but in reality, how far apart could they really be? And also, who's gonna really be able to tell as a listener? Also, isn't it also possible that there are many inherent differences between examples of old ones? Anyhow, I hear you on wanting an old one or a clone, but IMHO, that is a little OCD.

 

[blindrabbit]

Keep in mind, I have the Boss CE5 because it's different, not because it's like a Clone Theory at all.

Andrew has an OG Clone Theory, and I'd have to say it is definitely a bit nicer sounding than the modern CT. Still, the new one is close enough for me. Both are noisy.

Yes, I have noted that the Boss Chorus family is its own distinct sound from EHX, but I think it at least falls in the same family of those older, lush 80s choruses. Boss in general has never really grabbed me, so to speak, but considering what I'm looking for here, I may choose to take some of their pedals for a spin this time around.

I hear what you're saying about old vs new pedlas and their sound differences, but in reality, how far apart could they really be? And also, who's gonna really be able to tell as a listener? Also, isn't it also possible that there are many inherent differences between examples of old ones? Anyhow, I hear you on wanting an old one or a clone, but IMHO, that is a little OCD.

Well, we all know very well that same name + same company does not ever guarantee same circuit. EHX BMP is the classic example of this, and their current take on the Electric Mistress is another. At least Boss generally acknowledges changes to the circuit with different model numbers. In reality, the current Clone Theory could be very, very different from the classic one. Even the controls are different - for example, the absence of an edge switch. I've not yet found anything indicating that it is the same circuit, or that it even uses the same MN3007 chip. I'm not ruling out the current Clone Theory if it gives me the tone that I'm looking for, but I'm also not going to assume that it is the same.

 

[boristhespider7]

As a huge Hooky fan and an owner of the modern EHX clone theory i don't think you'll be dissapointed. I can cop a pretty realistic Hooky tone and am really pleased with it. You won't ever use the setting 1 or vibrato settings on it though, everything you need is in setting 2. In terms of noise i don't find it too bad. Personally i think it all depends on your amp set up. If you use a lot of tweeter and Hi-freq treble you'll notice it. I don't use tweeters and use Ashdown amps (which are typically on the warm side anyway) and would have to listen v hard to hear any hiss when i switch it on. In a live situation you wouldn't have any problem

Small clone is milder but still a nice warm chorus. If you want the Hooky tone i'd go for the CT.

 

[Driven Crane]

Thanks!

 

[blindrabbit]

As a huge Hooky fan and an owner of the modern EHX clone theory i don't think you'll be dissapointed. I can cop a pretty realistic Hooky tone and am really pleased with it. You won't ever use the setting 1 or vibrato settings on it though, everything you need is in setting 2. In terms of noise i don't find it too bad. Personally i think it all depends on your amp set up. If you use a lot of tweeter and Hi-freq treble you'll notice it. I don't use tweeters and use Ashdown amps (which are typically on the warm side anyway) and would have to listen v hard to hear any hiss when i switch it on. In a live situation you wouldn't have any problem

Small clone is milder but still a nice warm chorus. If you want the Hooky tone i'd go for the CT.

Thanks for the input! Now, quick question for you - is there anything else you've tried that has approximated the Clone Theory? For example, ever tried a TC TonePrint that comes close to it, or made one that does? Any other chorus pedals come close?

I use warm Aguilar amps and tweeters usually shut off, so I'm not too concerned with a little hiss.

Sounds like time for me to go Clone Theory shopping!

 

[MobileHolmes]

Yes, I have noted that the Boss Chorus family is its own distinct sound from EHX, but I think it at least falls in the same family of those older, lush 80s choruses. Boss in general has never really grabbed me, so to speak, but considering what I'm looking for here, I may choose to take some of their pedals for a spin this time around.



Well, we all know very well that same name + same company does not ever guarantee same circuit. EHX BMP is the classic example of this, and their current take on the Electric Mistress is another. At least Boss generally acknowledges changes to the circuit with different model numbers. In reality, the current Clone Theory could be very, very different from the classic one. Even the controls are different - for example, the absence of an edge switch. I've not yet found anything indicating that it is the same circuit, or that it even uses the same MN3007 chip. I'm not ruling out the current Clone Theory if it gives me the tone that I'm looking for, but I'm also not going to assume that it is the same.

In addition To that, I get them impression with older pedals that there was a lot if variation unit to unit because the tolerances in components weren't very tight.

 

[boristhespider7]

Thanks for the input! Now, quick question for you - is there anything else you've tried that has approximated the Clone Theory? For example, ever tried a TC TonePrint that comes close to it, or made one that does? Any other chorus pedals come close?

Only tried Boss and EHX chorus pedals so far, so can't offer much input on alternatives. The Boss ones just don't have the edginess of the Clone theory, the CEB-3 being so subtle its not worth looking at. CE-5 is much nicer but still not the CT.
I am interested in trying out a Boss DC2 (discontinued years ago) or the Behringer CC300 copy of it, its an old analogue chorus that some people use to rave about, but i can't say how it compares to a CT yet

 

[Driven Crane]

MXR Analog Chorus?

 

[DirkP]

The original Clone Theory 1977 from EHX has a SAD1024a chip (the one with an edge switch). The later one had a MN3007. Both chips are not produced anymore. Some clones of the clone have the MN3007 as NOS, but SAD1024a are very pricy (between 80,- and 250, - for the chip alone if bought used) and AFAIK none of the boutique clones use the original chip.

On the clone from EHX, the Stereo Clone Theory, Setting one duplicates the small stone, setting two more or less the classical clone theory.
The Stereo Clone Theory is pretty noisy, but the original was noisy too. But the Stereo Clone is very sensitive when it comes to input levels, it distorts very easily and in an unpleasant way.

The "big clone" algorithm in the Eventide H9 or the Modfactor comes pretty close. I use the Eventide a lot, another tool of choice that kind of has replaced the Stereo Clone is a cheap cheap Joyo Flanger.

 

[boristhespider7]

Some clones of the clone have the MN3007 as NOS, but SAD1024a are very pricy (between 80,- and 250, - for the chip alone if bought used) and AFAIK none of the boutique clones use the original chip.

I didn't know that. Any branded pedals use this chip...or are we talking 1 off boutique pedals?

 

[DirkP]

To my knowledge no branded pedal today is using the SAD1024a, some are using the Panasonic MN30007 like the Analogman Chorus:

("We use the original 1024 stage delay chip for high fidelity at the medium-short delay times that create chorusing sounds. We use New Old Stock (NOS) Japanese made Panasonic MN3007 chips, not the cheaper low voltage MN3207 or Chinese chips that most others use".
Analog Man Chorus Pedals

But they don't mention the SAD1024.


The original Small Clone used both chips too.

Info about the Bucket-Brigade-Devices MN30007:
ElectroSmash - Bucket Brigade Devices: MN3007

Info about the SAD1024a:
SADï·“1024 DUAL ANALOG DELAY LINE

This is a list of pedals that used the SAD1024a:
(the original pedals, not the clones or re-issues)

- EHX Electric Mistress
- Ross Flanger
- MXR Analog Delay - but NOT the M-118 version, I am pretty sure it was called M-117
- EHX Deluxe Memory Man (4 knob)
- EHX Memory Man Solid State Delay
- EHX Memory Man Echo/Chorus (non stereo)
- EHX Slapback Echo
- EHX Stereo Slapback Echo
- EHX Small Clone (not all)
- ADA Flanger (early ones)
- EHX Deluxe Electric Mistress
- EHX Clone Theory (w/Edge switch)
- Sovtek Electric Mistress (prototype)


At least the EXH-Reissues are using the MN3207.
I never owned an original Clone Theory, but it makes sense to me that these chips are the main factor that determines the sound of these units.


"Besides Panasonic/Matsushita, other companies were licensed to make BBD clones like Behringer which bankroll Coolaudio and started producing MN3207/3208/3205 clones for their own production needs. Visual Sound recommissioned production of MN3102/MN3207 in 2009. Shangai Beilling Co LTD manufacture pin compatible parts with Panasonic/Matsushita chips, labeled with BL instead of MN."

The reason the 3207 is still produced and by different manufacturers, but the 3007 and the 1024 are not, remains a mystery to me.

But it's fun to know that most electronic devices we use are kind of "misused" items for mass produced consumer electronics like the above mentioned chips that were used for Telephone-answering-machines...