Clones of the Clone Theory?

[blindrabbit]

To my knowledge no branded pedal today is using the SAD1024a, some are using the Panasonic MN30007 like the Analogman Chorus:

("We use the original 1024 stage delay chip for high fidelity at the medium-short delay times that create chorusing sounds. We use New Old Stock (NOS) Japanese made Panasonic MN3007 chips, not the cheaper low voltage MN3207 or Chinese chips that most others use".
Analog Man Chorus Pedals

But they don't mention the SAD1024.


The original Small Clone used both chips too.

Info about the Bucket-Brigade-Devices MN30007:
ElectroSmash - Bucket Brigade Devices: MN3007

Info about the SAD1024a:
SADï·“1024 DUAL ANALOG DELAY LINE

This is a list of pedals that used the SAD1024a:
(the original pedals, not the clones or re-issues)

- EHX Electric Mistress
- Ross Flanger
- MXR Analog Delay - but NOT the M-118 version, I am pretty sure it was called M-117
- EHX Deluxe Memory Man (4 knob)
- EHX Memory Man Solid State Delay
- EHX Memory Man Echo/Chorus (non stereo)
- EHX Slapback Echo
- EHX Stereo Slapback Echo
- EHX Small Clone (not all)
- ADA Flanger (early ones)
- EHX Deluxe Electric Mistress
- EHX Clone Theory (w/Edge switch)
- Sovtek Electric Mistress (prototype)


At least the EXH-Reissues are using the MN3207.
I never owned an original Clone Theory, but it makes sense to me that these chips are the main factor that determines the sound of these units.


"Besides Panasonic/Matsupoopiea, other companies were licensed to make BBD clones like Behringer which bankroll Coolaudio and started producing MN3207/3208/3205 clones for their own production needs. Visual Sound recommissioned production of MN3102/MN3207 in 2009. Shangai Beilling Co LTD manufacture pin compatible parts with Panasonic/Matsupoopiea chips, labeled with BL instead of MN."

The reason the 3207 is still produced and by different manufacturers, but the 3007 and the 1024 are not, remains a mystery to me.

But it's fun to know that most electronic devices we use are kind of "misused" items for mass produced consumer electronics like the above mentioned chips that were used for Telephone-answering-machines...

I do know that there are pedals out there that still use the MN3007, but they may be more in the boutique end of the spectrum, as some builders can still get their hands on small to medium sized quantities. The original VFE Choral Reef was based off the Small Clone circuit, and used an MN3007. He has now switched to a MN3008 BBD, which he says gives less noise but still excellent lush tone, and has made other tweaks to the circuit. I've always admired the VFE Choral Reef, but actually wonder if it is "too tweakable", with no less than 7 different controls. Pricey, too.

I too have never heard of anyone using the 1024 any more, but I've also read some posts on builder forums being quite critical of the 1024 as being even noisier than the 3007. AFAIK, not being any sort of builders or electronics expert, the BB chip does have a significant influence on the tone of the circuit.

 

[blindrabbit]

To my knowledge no branded pedal today is using the SAD1024a, some are using the Panasonic MN30007 like the Analogman Chorus:

("We use the original 1024 stage delay chip for high fidelity at the medium-short delay times that create chorusing sounds. We use New Old Stock (NOS) Japanese made Panasonic MN3007 chips, not the cheaper low voltage MN3207 or Chinese chips that most others use".
Analog Man Chorus Pedals

But they don't mention the SAD1024.


The original Small Clone used both chips too.

Info about the Bucket-Brigade-Devices MN30007:
ElectroSmash - Bucket Brigade Devices: MN3007

Info about the SAD1024a:
SADï·“1024 DUAL ANALOG DELAY LINE

This is a list of pedals that used the SAD1024a:
(the original pedals, not the clones or re-issues)

- EHX Electric Mistress
- Ross Flanger
- MXR Analog Delay - but NOT the M-118 version, I am pretty sure it was called M-117
- EHX Deluxe Memory Man (4 knob)
- EHX Memory Man Solid State Delay
- EHX Memory Man Echo/Chorus (non stereo)
- EHX Slapback Echo
- EHX Stereo Slapback Echo
- EHX Small Clone (not all)
- ADA Flanger (early ones)
- EHX Deluxe Electric Mistress
- EHX Clone Theory (w/Edge switch)
- Sovtek Electric Mistress (prototype)


At least the EXH-Reissues are using the MN3207.
I never owned an original Clone Theory, but it makes sense to me that these chips are the main factor that determines the sound of these units.


"Besides Panasonic/Matsupoopiea, other companies were licensed to make BBD clones like Behringer which bankroll Coolaudio and started producing MN3207/3208/3205 clones for their own production needs. Visual Sound recommissioned production of MN3102/MN3207 in 2009. Shangai Beilling Co LTD manufacture pin compatible parts with Panasonic/Matsupoopiea chips, labeled with BL instead of MN."

The reason the 3207 is still produced and by different manufacturers, but the 3007 and the 1024 are not, remains a mystery to me.

But it's fun to know that most electronic devices we use are kind of "misused" items for mass produced consumer electronics like the above mentioned chips that were used for Telephone-answering-machines...

The Malekko chorus uses the 3007, so I guess there is one semi-mass produced chorus that still has it.

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[Nephilymbass]

Haven't tried the clone theory.

I personally like the boss ce-5 out of all the boss chorus pedals. I have one on my board. It's much more obvious of an effect than the bass chorus. I didn't really consider it until I saw one on Justin Chancellors board. Tried it and it turned out to be the one for me.

 

[boristhespider7]

To my knowledge no branded pedal today is using the SAD1024a, some are using the Panasonic MN30007 like the Analogman Chorus

At least the EXH-Reissues are using the MN3207.
I never owned an original Clone Theory, but it makes sense to me that these chips are the main factor that determines the sound of these units.

The reason the 3207 is still produced and by different manufacturers, but the 3007 and the 1024 are not, remains a mystery to me.

Just out of curiosity i opened up my reissue CT and it has a MN3007 chip in it. Circuit board is dated 2009.

 

[blindrabbit]

Just out of curiosity i opened up my reissue CT and it has a MN3007 chip in it. Circuit board is dated 2009.

Huh. That's craziness. I thought those 3007 chips were long gone, but obviously this suggests otherwise!

I've struck up a conversation with a small independent builder to see if I can get him to build an original Clone Theory circuit using an SAD1024. I'm due to try out one of his Small Clone clones this weekend, built using a 3007.

Anyway, hearing that some recent Clone Theory pedals have the 3007 in them means I need to put them back on the shopping list!

 

[boristhespider7]

Anyone have chance to actually try out a Tech 21 bass boost chorus? From the sounds and description its sounds like it might get pretty close to the CT, expecially with the detune and tone controls. Some of the youtube vid's are welll on the way to it. It has a "Hooky" sample setting but how close is that?

 

[Driven Crane]

Hooky is close enough. Really close.

 

[stambroker]

Yeah, you really can't go wrong with the Tech 21 Bass Boost Chorus - not only does it get ridiculously close to the Clone Theory, it has virtually no noise/hum and is 100x more versatile. I'm a massive Hook fan and even my fanboyism couldn't bring myself to accept the noise/size from the Clone Theory.

 

[boristhespider7]

Yeah, you really can't go wrong with the Tech 21 Bass Boost Chorus - not only does it get ridiculously close to the Clone Theory, it has virtually no noise/hum and is 100x more versatile. I'm a massive Hook fan and even my fanboyism couldn't bring myself to accept the noise/size from the Clone Theory.

How about distortion level on the tech21? You get any with too hotter input?

 

[Driven Crane]

The problem is - you have to put this chorus BEFORE any distortions, fuzzes and, may be, boosters and overdrives. The only one, but big minus.

 

[blindrabbit]

The problem is - you have to put this chorus BEFORE any distortions, fuzzes and, may be, boosters and overdrives. The only one, but big minus.

That's a deal breaker for me. Never was a big fan of Tech 21 stuff anyway.

I'll try my luck with the Small Clone/Clone Theory first and see how it goes.

 

[Driven Crane]

That's a deal breaker for me. Never was a big fan of Tech 21 stuff anyway.

I'll try my luck with the Small Clone/Clone Theory first and see how it goes.

You should try Iron Ether
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[Driven Crane]

i have an Oxide - that one is the one of the greatest fuzzes i have tried.

 

[stambroker]

I run my Tech21 Chorus after my Tall Font Russian + Frazz Dazzler but neither pedal is set too extreme - I love the synthy chimes I get from gated fuzz + extreme chorus. I don't think I've ever experienced the clipping issues you guys have reported.

 

[Driven Crane]

This is like some kind of beating, if to set multivoice and tone fully clockwise.

 

[andrew]

I've struck up a conversation with a small independent builder to see if I can get him to build an original Clone Theory circuit using an SAD1024. I'm due to try out one of his Small Clone clones this weekend, built using a 3007.

Let us know if they can build a true copy of the original Clone Theory.

I'm a big Peter Hook fan too and I've gone through a bunch of different chorus pedals. I do have an original Clone Theory and the reissue too. Comparing them, the original is more lush and ear pleasing than the reissue, but the reissue has a crude charm to it I really dig. I've compared the reissue to more expensive chorus pedals and preferred the CT reissue. It's really a forward, aggressive chorus sound so it sits better in the mix (where a lot of prettier chorus pedals disappear), but that forwardness can turn off people wanting a more subtle, organic kind of chorus.

The Tech 21 Bass Boost chorus is a really good chorus pedal. Versatile, quiet, really musical and pretty sounding. It is the best all around chorus I've owned. It does cop a convincing Hook tone, but on sound alone I like the original Clone Theory more and would put the CT reissue on par for my personal tastes. I really like the reissue CT's fugly charm, I know many don't.

Analogman is nice, but not the bees knees on bass. It's based on the Small Clone. Both it and the reissue Small Clone are nice on bass but not a first choice for me. I also have 90's big box reissues of the Stereo Memory Man and PolyChorus. Again, both can sound good on bass but aren't my first choice. Same with all the older MXR choruses (but I havn't tried the newest MXR Bass Chorus with my own gear).
Older Boss CE-2 sounds really nice on bass and I think the newer Boss chorus pedals sound better than they get credit for, especially given price vs. how much most players use chorus on bass.

I'm in the honeymoon phase with it, but I recently got the DLS Ultra Chorus II and I think it's great. It combines really nice sounding chorus with versatility and a rock solid, easy to use package. It's medium-big so that might be a negative but it's up there for me on the chorus tone scale.

 

[DirkP]

Did you try the stereo Analogman, too? What I don't like about the RI CT is that it distorts so easily. I have ruined some recordings with it. Never had the chance to try out an original edge Clone Theory (is yours the edge-version Hook uses with the SAD-chip?). But I had the impression to come closer to Hook's sound on 24 hours in stereo mode although the original CT is mono. But 24 hours has a lot to do with his open string technique, kind of a chorus in itself.
This said, I very much prefer the early use of the CT against the later use. Since about PC&L but even more significant later, I think Hook overuses the chorus. It feels like eating too much sugar (but his lines are still great).

 

[andrew]

I havn't noticed the CT reissue distorting easily but it boosts volume, so it may be feeding your recording gear a hotter signal than your bypassed tone. That volume boost is another bane for a lot of people with that pedal.

Standard Analogman, have not tried the stereo version.

Yes, my original CT is the same as the first one Hook bought/used. It could be you're getting closer in stereo mode with the reissue because it emulates some aspect of added studio effect or mix on the record.

 

[andrew]

The problem is - you have to put this chorus BEFORE any distortions, fuzzes and, may be, boosters and overdrives. The only one, but big minus.

I tested this tonight and found the Boost Chorus to be fine after distortion and fuzz. What unpleasant sound/effect is it making for you that makes you not want to put it after a dirt box? Could be it's picky about sounding nice with certain other pedals in front of it.

 

[andrew]

I've seen that the RetroSonic CE-1 clone exists, but I've not been able to find one for sale. It also looks as though it would be $$$.

RetroSonic is a clone of the Boss cE-1, which is a clone of the chorus circuit from a Roland Jazz Chorus. They sound nice but are more polite than you'd expect and don't have the same richness of a guitar through a Jazz Chorus amp. It is a good pedal though, but they are expensive. I liked it more on guitar than bass.