CNC or not

[MegaSwing]

This thread is only another example of how passionately people will argue over something that is nearly irrelevant.

 

[UncleFluffy]

This thread is only another example of how passionately people will argue over something that is nearly irrelevant.

But that's what the Intarwebz are for. Isn't it? Well, that and boobies, of course.

 

[Craig_S]

"interwebs"? Another ridiculous word made up by someone who has a need to try and look cooler than he is. I hate that word.

It's INTERNET

Next time, I'll tell you how I really feel.

hmmm... Maybe if it was hand crafted by artisans it would sound better to me.

 

[UncleFluffy]

"interwebs"? Another ridiculous word made up by someone who has a need to try and look cooler than he is. I hate that word.

It's INTERNET

Next time, I'll tell you how I really feel.

*cough* parody *cough*

(I actually agree with you, in case that's not obvious. "interweb" is a nice parody of those who believe that WWW == internet.)

 

[Craig_S]

*cough* parody *cough*

(I actually agree with you, in case that's not obvious. "interweb" is a nice parody of those who believe that WWW == internet.)

I wasn't aiming at you. I could tell you were joking.

 

[aborgman]

If that same guy was using a CNC mill to shape the neck he would have had to reprogram a new toolpath using the machining software and it would have taken a whole afternoon to do that $$$$$$$

Unless the person doing the CAD work was awful - this is a LONG way from taking all afternoon. At my last job we had guys who would do relatively complex 3d models in a couple hours. Changing a neck taper on an already drawn part? Probably takes longer to QC the first part after machining it than changing the code takes.

 

[Super D]

Unless the person doing the CAD work was awful - this is a LONG way from taking all afternoon. At my last job we had guys who would do relatively complex 3d models in a couple hours. Changing a neck taper on an already drawn part? Probably takes longer to QC the first part after machining it than changing the code takes.

Agreed, most changes are only a few mouse clicks.

 

[MikeBass]

"Hand tools"?? No one uses "hand tools" to make basses. They all use milling machines. The ONLY difference is that the machine operator is mostly eliminated in the CNC process. This leads to better quality control and productivity.

The ONLY reason your favorite backyard luthier doesn't have a CNC machine is that he can't afford to buy one.

or a five axis with a ball nose end mill, or...

I find the statement that one can feel a difference between a CNC cut and hand cut neck completely ridiculous, as the last steps in both processes are finish sanding. It's like saying one can feel the difference in two cotton tee shirts, one made by machine and one made by hand. The only difference in the necks, given the same wood was used, might be a custom neck profile.

I think it was Peavey when they made the Eddie VanHalen guitar, they took his old Kramer neck, grabbed measurments about every 1/64" (.0156" for those playing at home) and dropped that into their CNC and cut all the necks.
Eddie himself stated (maybe it was marketing BS, who knows) that he really had a hard time telling the difference.

I could have a 3D scan done of any neck, drop it into a CNC and have the neck cut within +/-.02mm of the original scan.
HUNDREDS of times.
If someone can tell me they could tell the difference between the hand carved neck and one scanned in and cut, then they should be working for Bentley or Ferrari with fingers that sensitive.

Hell, CamLogic here in the Detroit area did a scan of a molded part for us that was about 20 times as complicated as that pic posted earlier.
Complete with reference planes and datum points for all entities and the cost was only $2000.
And once I converted it to work for injection molding, I had chips flying from the billets about two days later.

You can't expect a neck to not have human hands finish it.
Plus with wood being about as an inconsistant material to work with (as opposed to the 6061-T6 mentioned earlier), you HAVE to fine tune it by hand.

 

[MikeBass]

Unless the person doing the CAD work was awful - this is a LONG way from taking all afternoon. At my last job we had guys who would do relatively complex 3d models in a couple hours. Changing a neck taper on an already drawn part? Probably takes longer to QC the first part after machining it than changing the code takes.

Agreed, most changes are only a few mouse clicks.

I just did a 3D solidbody mock up of a Gibson J45 acoustic (we're providing all the paint/finishing robots, our RobCAD guys needed it) from a very basic Gibson print in about 30 min.
Coutours and all relations from front to back angles of the body had to be accurate as well. Not just something in a general shape of an acoustic. We're finishing these things, so it had to be real close.
For all practical uses, the data from the body could be captured and loaded into a CNC and wood could be cut for the first run in a few hours tops. (if it was a solid piece of wood that is)
With the software available today, it's pretty easy to make pretty close copies of something as simple as a bass guitart body or neck.

 

[Munjibunga]

I wonder why US Lakland fretboards come crowned and leveled by master luthiers while Skyline's is done by a CNC...

Absurd, huh?

It is absurd. The CNC ones will be more consistent.

 

[Munjibunga]

Second - Not that I ever will, but were I to spend $10,000+ for some of these "handcrafted" instruments, it had BETTER be built by hand or someone is giving me a refund.

Would it be OK if they used a bandsaw to cut the body blank? Can they use belt sanders? How about electric drills? Planers? Jointers? Buffers?

 

[MikeBass]

I wonder why US Lakland fretboards come crowned and leveled by master luthiers while Skyline's is done by a CNC...

Absurd, huh?

Not at all.
a Plek machine can crank out a dozen or more a day.
Hand done 2 or 3.
Time=$$$$$

Invalid Link Removed
I guess Plek isn't as good as hand shaped.

 

[Eric Perry]

My concern is not how a bass is cut, but that many CNC using builders charge hand-made (and higher!) prices. That's the only thing that irks me.

 

[Munjibunga]

Here's some robots at work.

Spray Booth.

Buffing.

Bending.

 

[scotch]

My concern is not how a bass is cut, but that many CNC using builders charge hand-made (and higher!) prices. That's the only thing that irks me.

Just curious:

How would you feel about a builder using a cnc cutter to 'rough shape' a body and neck & then do all of the critical final shaping and finishing by hand? (Including knives & rasps to shape the neck + hand tools & abrasives to finish the body contours.)

Additionally, would you consider using a band-saw to rough out a body blank as "hand-made"?

Purely just interested in opinion, not a loaded question!

 

[Coolhandjjl]

The only way to make it feel different would be if the parts were hand planed instead of cut.

I prefer a more organic approach myself. A octogenarian bonsai artist coaxing the tree to grow in the shape of the bass I want, so all I have to do is peel the bark off when fully grown.

 

[metron]

Hand made blah blah. Whats the benefit in that? I like the consistency cnc offers. At least you know what to expect. Example: based on my experiences with early g&l basses, i never thought the 1980 l1000 i bought on line would have a neck profile thats a cross between a D and a V. Never heard of such a thing yet there it is. I do like the neck a lot but it was unexpected. Someone was jamming on the machines that day, probably anticipating the upcoming holiday week.


Yes there is a difference In feel between hand made and cnc necks. Hand made can easily be one of a kind. Cnc is predictable.

 

[Jazzdogg]

What's next, a thread arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Although I do find it mildly amusing to read so many completely arbitrary and uninformed posts, this thread is silly at best.

 

[metron]

What's next, a thread arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Although I do find it mildly amusing to read so many completely arbitrary and uninformed posts, this thread is silly at best.

I see you joined tb in 2006 however it sounds like you may have been away for a while...

 

[MikeBass]

Here's some robots at work.

Spray Booth.

Buffing.

Bending.

Don't leave out EBMM.
I know they use robots for their spray booths as well as their buffing stations.

We're also doing a project for Taylor Guitars now for some more finishing booths- more robots...

To be honest, I could care less as long as it plays and sound like I need/want it to.

Just when I hear an argument that one is "better" than the other....well...is that really something you would want to solidly place a dog in a hunt like that? The fact is that there is a huge misconception that "hand made" is supposed to be better.
Machine's are soul-less cold hunks of metal that can churn out exacting replicas of what ever is put in them with no account for the "artistry" of a person building it with simple tools.
Sure.
Maybe 50 years ago I would believe that. Today, not so much.
There is so much evidence showing that hand made isn't measureably better.
I think the industrial revolution and world of mass production has cut corners where someone producing only a handful of basses a year wouldn't has lead to this line of thought.
And to make up the ground that was lost in the years when just churning out product vs. quality product is going to be a long battle.
As evident by this thread alone and the opposed sides of one vs. the other, shows how much more of an educated buying "public" we are. And how the internet has let manufactures know how quickly crap work will be talked about.