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CNC or not

CNC or not ?

  • I like my basses cut by hand.

    Votes: 8 2.8%
  • I prefer a cnc cut bass.

    Votes: 38 13.1%
  • I don't mind.

    Votes: 243 84.1%

  • Total voters
    289
  • Poll closed .
who gives a rat's ass? it's freaking wood!

Do you prefer your rat's ass to be genetically modified or cloned or from a naturally reproduced rat? If the latter, what size of litter should the rat be from? What's the best Rat's Ass for Metal? What's the best Rat's Ass for playing in a RATT tribute band?
Forgive me, it's early and I've had not enough sleep and too much coffee so I think I'm Henny Youngman....
:D
 
Do you prefer your rat's ass to be genetically modified or cloned or from a naturally reproduced rat? If the latter, what size of litter should the rat be from? What's the best Rat's Ass for Metal? What's the best Rat's Ass for playing in a RATT tribute band?
Forgive me, it's early and I've had not enough sleep and too much coffee so I think I'm Henny Youngman....
:D
that was actually pretty funny. henny would be proud!
 
As an engineer I can tell you I would rather have an instrument that is made with the aid of a computer. CNCs are capable of tolerances the human eye is not is not.

Thats why the hand-made harley was so troublesome!

Seriously, I would rather buy a boutique bass run on a CNC that was operated by a craftsman.
 
As I said, my issue isn't with using a CNC, but builders using said machines and charging hand made prices.

I visited the Roscoe shop a few years back and I was so impressed. It's a *wood shop*. They do all cutting, shaping, etc. by hand. Sure, they had a CNC in the shop, and it was being utilized solely as a sawdust covered shelf.

Well, not ENTIRELY accurate. ;) (Heya EP!)

We use the CNC to rough cut the bodies on most of our basses (shape, control cavity, neck pocket, pickup routs), and it does the (VERY) rough 3D carve on the LG 3005 now. The SKB is still not being cut on the CNC at all, but we use a pin router, which is a just a CNC machine with a human running it instead of a computer - not a huge difference in our application, except that the computer frees up the guy with the skills to take the rough cut and shaped piece and make it the final product to DO that.

Eventually, we will be CNC cutting quite a bit of what we do, bodies and necks. They won't be fully finished product of course, but just a very rough hewn beginning of the final product. The FINAL work will always be hand's on by someone that "gets" what it's supposed to look and feel like. That person is also in charge of running the CNC, watching what it is doing as it cuts things, and has the authority to shut the machine down if he's not happy with it. He's also involved in all stages of setting up to use the CNC.

For you gearhead/machinist types out there, we have a real dinosaur, it's a 1982 Campbell, which we retro'd digital controls on (when I got here we still had the ANALOG controller on it!). We are considering adding a Fadal....

Frankly, my take on this whole "argument" is that it's silly.

;)

No one is talking parts off of a CNC router and putting them in a robotic sprayer, then a robotic buffer and putting it together.

No. One.

Seriously, do you actually think that this:

YouTube - 6259

Became this:

Link Removed

Without a lot of HUMAN interaction?

There is still some measure of work that is done by a human, to make certain it is correct and will do what it is intended to do.

Further the whole "hand-made" argument is sillier. Hand-made? Really??? What, did you chew through the trunk of the tree, gouge the wood out with your fingernails, then rub it smooth with the ridges on your skin, and then finally finish it by rubbing that smoothly skinned surface with a combination of your sweat, skin oil, and tears?????

No, you used TOOLS. A CNC machine is a TOOL. That is all. It is one step removed from a pin router, which is one step removed from a simple router table, which is one step removed from a hand router, which is....

...TOOLS.

:)

When you walk through our shop, in addition to the hulking behemoth of a dinosaur in the corner (the CNC router), there are two pin routers, a 36" bandsaw, a 16" horizontal resaw (heaven forbid - IT'S DIGITALLY CONTROLLED! :eek: ), a small detail bandsaw, a jointer, a planer, a time saver sander, a copy carver (which does the rough 3D carve on all the bodies except the LG 3005!), a gang saw for slotting, buffing wheels, a router table with a hand router mounted under it, several drill presses, various wood clamps, air-driven grinders and orbital sanders, belt sander, spindle sander, radius sander, arbor press, spoke shaves, rasps, sanding blocks, straight edges (you would be APPALLED at the cost of a good, accurate straight edge! :spit: ), spray guns, sandpaper of various grits, and on, and on...

TOOLS.

Anyone that sells you a "hand-made" bass is using that phrase for marketing, not accuracy. Well, unless you're Steve Wishnevsky. ;) (...actually, he uses tools too, just not as many as most builders...)

As for pricing, you're paying for the quality of the finished product. End of story. Not for the "hand-made-ness" or "incredible accuracy", but the PLAYABILITY, TONE, AND APPEARANCE of the instrument. How it arrives to having the value is of little or no consequence.

Is a Fodera worth what it sells for? That's up to YOU to determine. Is a Roscoe? Same answer. Is one "better" than the other? Hell no, they're DIFFERENT, that's all. I have nothing but respect for what they do, and how they do it, they are fellow craftsmen that do something similar to what we do. But they don't do what we do, they do what THEY do.

Now, stop worrying so much about our jobs (us folks that build them) and start worrying more about YOURS: play the damn things! :)
 
For you gearhead/machinist types out there, we have a real dinosaur, it's a 1982 Campbell, which we retro'd digital controls on (when I got here we still had the ANALOG controller on it!). We are considering adding a Fadal....

If you're looking mainly to rough cut wood / plastic / composites, you might want to take a look at the Shopbot range. I've used one for a bunch of projects pretty successfully and they're far less $ than some of the "big iron" machines.
 
If you're looking mainly to rough cut wood / plastic / composites, you might want to take a look at the Shopbot range. I've used one for a bunch of projects pretty successfully and they're far less $ than some of the "big iron" machines.

We'd rather invest in the "big iron" because the Shopbot stuff (which is good for what it is) just doesn't seem to have the same level of "beat the crap out of it and it keeps going-ness" that the Fadal stuff does.

We're definitely not looking at NEW stuff! :eek: ;)
 
We'd rather invest in the "big iron" because the Shopbot stuff (which is good for what it is) just doesn't seem to have the same level of "beat the crap out of it and it keeps going-ness" that the Fadal stuff does.

I know it's only one data point, but the one I use is in a shared workshop with all sorts of half-trained people (including me) beating on it 12/7 and it definitely holds up well. Regular tool changes, nonsense feed speeds, getting slammed up against the stops, all that ...
 
We'd rather invest in the "big iron" because the Shopbot stuff (which is good for what it is) just doesn't seem to have the same level of "beat the crap out of it and it keeps going-ness" that the Fadal stuff does.

We're definitely not looking at NEW stuff! :eek: ;)

Wha?!? You mean you lied when you told me the basses were made by little tree gnomes out behind the shop.
You said like the Kiebler Elves, but they made basses and not cookies.......(because you said their baking skills sucked and Kiebler fired them, but they could handle a chisle and hammer real good)
 
Wha?!? You mean you lied when you told me the basses were made by little tree gnomes out behind the shop.

...the only thing "out behind the shop" here is a dog grooming/boarding place and an exterminator...no gnomes....

:rollno:

;)

You said like the Kiebler Elves, but they made basses and not cookies.......(because you said their baking skills sucked and Kiebler fired them, but they could handle a chisle and hammer real good)

...and I dunno if I'd get anywhere near a [This invalid link has been removed] with a hammer...or anything else! :eek:
 
I know it's only one data point, but the one I use is in a shared workshop with all sorts of half-trained people (including me) beating on it 12/7 and it definitely holds up well. Regular tool changes, nonsense feed speeds, getting slammed up against the stops, all that ...

Interesting...thanks for the input, I'll bring that up when we next discuss it, thanks! :)
 
Well, not ENTIRELY accurate. ;) (Heya EP!)

We use the CNC to rough cut the bodies on most of our basses (shape, control cavity, neck pocket, pickup routs), and it does the (VERY) rough 3D carve on the LG 3005 now. The SKB is still not being cut on the CNC at all, but we use a pin router, which is a just a CNC machine with a human running it instead of a computer - not a huge difference in our application, except that the computer frees up the guy with the skills to take the rough cut and shaped piece and make it the final product to DO that.

Eventually, we will be CNC cutting quite a bit of what we do, bodies and necks. They won't be fully finished product of course, but just a very rough hewn beginning of the final product. The FINAL work will always be hand's on by someone that "gets" what it's supposed to look and feel like. That person is also in charge of running the CNC, watching what it is doing as it cuts things, and has the authority to shut the machine down if he's not happy with it. He's also involved in all stages of setting up to use the CNC.

For you gearhead/machinist types out there, we have a real dinosaur, it's a 1982 Campbell, which we retro'd digital controls on (when I got here we still had the ANALOG controller on it!). We are considering adding a Fadal....

Frankly, my take on this whole "argument" is that it's silly.

;)

No one is talking parts off of a CNC router and putting them in a robotic sprayer, then a robotic buffer and putting it together.

No. One.

Seriously, do you actually think that this:

YouTube - 6259

Became this:

Link Removed

Without a lot of HUMAN interaction?

There is still some measure of work that is done by a human, to make certain it is correct and will do what it is intended to do.

Further the whole "hand-made" argument is sillier. Hand-made? Really??? What, did you chew through the trunk of the tree, gouge the wood out with your fingernails, then rub it smooth with the ridges on your skin, and then finally finish it by rubbing that smoothly skinned surface with a combination of your sweat, skin oil, and tears?????

No, you used TOOLS. A CNC machine is a TOOL. That is all. It is one step removed from a pin router, which is one step removed from a simple router table, which is one step removed from a hand router, which is....

...TOOLS.

:)

When you walk through our shop, in addition to the hulking behemoth of a dinosaur in the corner (the CNC router), there are two pin routers, a 36" bandsaw, a 16" horizontal resaw (heaven forbid - IT'S DIGITALLY CONTROLLED! :eek: ), a small detail bandsaw, a jointer, a planer, a time saver sander, a copy carver (which does the rough 3D carve on all the bodies except the LG 3005!), a gang saw for slotting, buffing wheels, a router table with a hand router mounted under it, several drill presses, various wood clamps, air-driven grinders and orbital sanders, belt sander, spindle sander, radius sander, arbor press, spoke shaves, rasps, sanding blocks, straight edges (you would be APPALLED at the cost of a good, accurate straight edge! :spit: ), spray guns, sandpaper of various grits, and on, and on...

TOOLS.

Anyone that sells you a "hand-made" bass is using that phrase for marketing, not accuracy. Well, unless you're Steve Wishnevsky. ;) (...actually, he uses tools too, just not as many as most builders...)

As for pricing, you're paying for the quality of the finished product. End of story. Not for the "hand-made-ness" or "incredible accuracy", but the PLAYABILITY, TONE, AND APPEARANCE of the instrument. How it arrives to having the value is of little or no consequence.

Is a Fodera worth what it sells for? That's up to YOU to determine. Is a Roscoe? Same answer. Is one "better" than the other? Hell no, they're DIFFERENT, that's all. I have nothing but respect for what they do, and how they do it, they are fellow craftsmen that do something similar to what we do. But they don't do what we do, they do what THEY do.

Now, stop worrying so much about our jobs (us folks that build them) and start worrying more about YOURS: play the damn things! :)

Best post I have read on Talkbass in about a month or so.
Thanks for that Gard.
 
Seriously, do you actually think that this:

YouTube - 6259

Became this:

Link Removed

Without a lot of HUMAN interaction?
What I absolutely love about your Youtube clip is how some well-meaning soul has given you advice about how to do it better!
"You know, Stanley, that tone's way too brittle!"
"Gee, Jaco, that fretless sounds out of tune to me..."
"You know, Miles, maybe you're using that mute too much after all...."
:D
Gotta love Youtube!