Double Bass collapsing first finger in thumb position

[flyswater8]

i've been having trouble getting proper technique in thumb position. it's mainly the first finger that collapses and the second finger is a hit or miss. i've talked to my teacher about it but he only mentioned long nails. i've clipped mine as much as possible, but my nail beds are long and still dig into the fingerboard if i try to keep my fingers parallel to the string. here's a photo: Screenshot - 72618bff4e67ba81a20e0d7025a2f5d5 - Gyazo
this is how i started practicing in an attempt to mimic what i've seen other players do to try and keep curved fingers, but it's pretty much just the left half of my nail that's making all (or most) of the contact with the string

 

[ILIA]

Your hand/fingers are too square to the strings, approaching perpendicularity. The fingers should be making contact at more of a 45-degree angle. You'll have to experiment with that, but start experimenting with 45 degrees in relationship to the string. And your thumb should be free to rotate forward or back, in order to accommodate the curvature of the 1st finger, which also flexes on the 1st knuckle in order to maintain its curvature.

OP, beware of the inevitable purveyors of collapsed knuckle "pedagogy." Curved finger players can choose to play with collapsed fingers or flat fingers at any time (for intentional implementation of musical choices of color, vibrato, etc.). Collapsed players don't have that option, and they will never be able to play as fast, clean, and articulate as the curved fingers players. It's great that you are trying to fix this problem.

Oh, and get a new teacher. They should have been able to explain to you, what I just said. It's fairly elemental.

 

[Co.]

For me, there are two possibilities.
Either rotate your hand towards the finger, that you want to use, so the weight of your arm rests on that finger naturally.
Or, if you want to keep the rotation and hand shape, that is optimal for your first finger, although you are also using your second and third fingers, you'd have to lift your first finger off the board. This can actually help with left hand articulation.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

OP, beware of the inevitable purveyors of collapsed knuckle "pedagogy."...they will never be able to play as fast, clean, and articulate as the curved fingers players.

Renaud Garcia Fons. DaXun Zhang. Lorraine Campet...

Yes, just imagine how fast, clean, and articulate these players and many others could play if only they adhered to the correct "pedagogy".

After attending the past two ISB conventions and sitting dead center in the second row every night for both sets (classical feature followed by jazz feature each night), I'd estimate the curved/collapsed TP technique on display among some of the world's finest players to be about 50/50 among those players.

 

[ILIA]

Renaud Garcia Fons. DaXun Zhang. Lorraine Campet...

Yes, just imagine how fast, clean, and articulate these players and many others could play if only they adhered to the correct "pedagogy".

After attending the past two ISB conventions and sitting dead center in the second row every night for both sets (classical feature followed by jazz feature each night), I'd estimate the curved/collapsed TP technique on display among some of the world's finest players to be about 50/50 among those players.

If I had my strings as low as some bassists, then my chances of playing fast, clean, and articulate increase, regardless of how I hammer my fingers down, curved, collapsed, or flat. When the strings start going up, necessitated by having to fill a hall with only one's acoustic sound, or to be heard with an ensemble without the help of electronics, then the curved fingers become much more important.

When the O.P. becomes DaXun or Renaud or Lorraine Campet, they can do whatever they want. If the O.P. is not one of them, yet, then I suggest learning the path that will open up the most options, as they develop and choose their path on the bass. Hence, that's why I say that curved finger players can choose to play with collapsed fingers or flat fingers at any time (for intentional implementation of musical choices of color, vibrato, etc.). Collapsed players don't have that option.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

My objection was to the snide quotation marks in the sentence:

OP, beware of the inevitable purveyors of collapsed knuckle "pedagogy."

I don't know anything about the pedagogy of any of these people, but I can't help but notice what they do, that they do it consistently, and that they sound absolutely brilliant doing it. I'm fine with assuming that players of this caliber could likely do whatever they want, but there is no denying what they choose to actually do when you see them in person. And there are many more world class players like them.

As for the low strings comments, I'm not sure how that is supposed to tie in to any of this. I'm playing Dominants at 7-10mm and don't find one technique particularly easier/harder than the other in terms of pressing the strings down. The one place we agree is with the idea that it's a good idea to learn to play both ways, and to learn the differences in sound between them. There are times, especially in the upper and lower extremes, where I find myself naturally inclined to play on the tips for both physical and sonic reasons.

@flyswater8 - Looking at your picture, I agree with ILIA about the angle of the first finger. No matter whether I am playing with curved or collapsed fingers, the line left on the fingertip is about 45 degrees, starting down on the pad and angling up toward the nail. Yours looks like the string is getting up under the nail bed on the index finger, and that the finger is curved so much that it's actually coming back toward the string from the direction of the next string down. What does your teacher say about this?

 

[damonsmith]

Somehow, I actually agree with both of these posts!

Renaud Garcia Fons. DaXun Zhang. Lorraine Campet...

Yes, just imagine how fast, clean, and articulate these players and many others could play if only they adhered to the correct "pedagogy".

After attending the past two ISB conventions and sitting dead center in the second row every night for both sets (classical feature followed by jazz feature each night), I'd estimate the curved/collapsed TP technique on display among some of the world's finest players to be about 50/50 among those players.

Your hand/fingers are too square to the strings, approaching perpendicularity. The fingers should be making contact at more of a 45-degree angle. You'll have to experiment with that, but start experimenting with 45 degrees in relationship to the string. And your thumb should be free to rotate forward or back, in order to accommodate the curvature of the 1st finger, which also flexes on the 1st knuckle in order to maintain its curvature.

OP, beware of the inevitable purveyors of collapsed knuckle "pedagogy." Curved finger players can choose to play with collapsed fingers or flat fingers at any time (for intentional implementation of musical choices of color, vibrato, etc.). Collapsed players don't have that option, and they will never be able to play as fast, clean, and articulate as the curved fingers players. It's great that you are trying to fix this problem.

Oh, and get a new teacher. They should have been able to explain to you, what I just said. It's fairly elemental.

 

[damonsmith]

While I don't recommend pizzicato for intonation, it is a great way to work on strength and left hand shape. Also, since this is a physical issue, use your eyes, spend some time "reading your hand" with some simple memorized exercises. Whether you have someone telling you it is OK to collapse fingers or not, it isn't a choice you are making from an informed position unless you can do both.
While Chris is 100% correct that a ton of our great players are out there doing it, I personally don't think it is something to do willy-nilly.
Rabbath is one of the people who advocates it, he also advocates starting each day with two hours of a single scale. So, if you are not involved in anything that rigorous, I'd stay with the traditional wisdom.

Since there are no scientific studies on the double bass left hand and joint issues that I know of, I would make an educated guess that curved fingers are more efficient and stress the joints less. I don't think there is any real evidence in either direction, however.

 

[Bass000]

Collapsed players don't have that option, and they will never be able to play as fast, clean, and articulate as the curved fingers players.

Rabbath can get any color out of his bass he wants and play more fast and cleanly than any other bassist on here saying that collapsed fingers limit you. Until you can play faster and more cleanly than him (or any other bassist who uses collapsed fingers), why would you say your technique is better?

 

[BassFalcon]

While I don't recommend pizzicato for intonation, it is a great way to work on strength and left hand shape. Also, since this is a physical issue, use your eyes, spend some time "reading your hand" with some simple memorized exercises. Whether you have someone telling you it is OK to collapse fingers or not, it isn't a choice you are making from an informed position unless you can do both.
While Chris is 100% correct that a ton of our great players are out there doing it, I personally don't think it is something to do willy-nilly.
Rabbath is one of the people who advocates it, he also advocates starting each day with two hours of a single scale. So, if you are not involved in anything that rigorous, I'd stay with the traditional wisdom.

Since there are no scientific studies on the double bass left hand and joint issues that I know of, I would make an educated guess that curved fingers are more efficient and stress the joints less. I don't think there is any real evidence in either direction, however.

While it’s anecdotal at best, I’ve been playing for 23 years and that whole time I’ve had issues with a collapsing double jointed 4th finger, to the point where it would occasionally get stuck and I’d have to unlock it. That’s just my anatomy, I’ve worked very hard to overcome it and to deal with it. Last fall a car hit me while I was parked at a stop sign and among those issues was a broken left hand 4th finger. It was an odd break, kind of vertical but right at the knuckle joint. The orthopedist I was seeing was also a musician. I had very very many X-rays done from a variety of angles by a number of different doctors all scrutinizing my 4th finger joints, and was told my joints are perfectly healthy including my musician orthopedist. If there were any issues with damaged joints or prematurely worn cartilage or anything I’m quite certain that would’ve come up at some point. So in my own “case study” 23 years of “collapsing” has caused no issues.

 

[damonsmith]

Rabbath can get any color out of his bass he wants and play more fast and cleanly than any other bassist on here saying that collapsed fingers limit you. Until you can play faster and more cleanly than him (or any other bassist who uses collapsed fingers), why would you say your technique is better?

I am not sure that is 100% true. However, I think counting on being like any Iconoclast is a fool's bet. Whether you are hoping for Charlie Haden's golden ear or Rabbath's super human abilities, it is better to take a more proven path than hope what works for an exceptional person. Taking on an icon's bad habits is not an intelligent plan. Both Rabbath and Haden would have done what they've done with any technique. Just like Charlie Parker & Bill Evans would have been exceptional musicians if they were stone sober.

While it’s anecdotal at best, I’ve been playing for 23 years and that whole time I’ve had issues with a collapsing double jointed 4th finger, to the point where it would occasionally get stuck and I’d have to unlock it. That’s just my anatomy, I’ve worked very hard to overcome it and to deal with it. Last fall a car hit me while I was parked at a stop sign and among those issues was a broken left hand 4th finger. It was an odd break, kind of vertical but right at the knuckle joint. The orthopedist I was seeing was also a musician. I had very very many X-rays done from a variety of angles by a number of different doctors all scrutinizing my 4th finger joints, and was told my joints are perfectly healthy including my musician orthopedist. If there were any issues with damaged joints or prematurely worn cartilage or anything I’m quite certain that would’ve come up at some point. So in my own “case study” 23 years of “collapsing” has caused no issues.

I'd would say a a double joint is a different thing than collapsing.

 

[BassFalcon]

I am not sure that is 100% true. However, I think counting on being like any Iconoclast is a fool's bet. Whether you are hoping for Charlie Haden's golden ear or Rabbath's super human abilities, it is better to take a more proven path than hope what works for an exceptional person. Taking on an icon's bad habits is not an intelligent plan. Both Rabbath and Haden would have done what they've done with any technique. Just like Charlie Parker & Bill Evans would have been exceptional musicians if they were stone sober.



I'd would say a a double joint is a different thing than collapsing.

I agree it’s not necessarily the same, but it in my case it results in a lot of unintentional collapsing

 

[Don Kasper]

I wonder if current practitioners of "collapsed" (TP) started out originally learning & playing "collapsed" in TP, or, if they started out learning a conventional "curved..." TP approach and later made an artistic/musical decision to abandon "curved" and switch to "collapsed"? Hmmm.
I think it is a worthwhile question that will probably remain unanswered.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.

 

[ILIA]

Rabbath can get any color out of his bass he wants and play more fast and cleanly than any other bassist on here saying that collapsed fingers limit you. Until you can play faster and more cleanly than him (or any other bassist who uses collapsed fingers), why would you say your technique is better?

Rabbath is already The Rabbath. He can do whatever he wants to do and whatever he doesn't want to do.

When it comes to you however, until you can play just as fast and clean as him with collapsed fingers, why would you say arched fingers are not better?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Given all the great players who use so many various techniques, I don’t see why technique preferences need to end up as a contest of X vs. Y with the winner emerging as the victorious “best” technique for everyone. They are all just tools, after all.

 

[PaulCannon]

I wonder if current practitioners of "collapsed" (TP) started out originally learning & playing "collapsed" in TP, or, if they started out learning a conventional "curved..." TP approach and later made an artistic/musical decision to abandon "curved" and switch to "collapsed"? Hmmm.
I think it is a worthwhile question that will probably remain unanswered.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.

That's exactly what I did...

 

[damonsmith]

Given all the great players who use so many various techniques, I don’t see why technique preferences need to end up as a contest of X vs. Y with the winner emerging as the victorious “best” technique for everyone. They are all just tools, after all.

As far as I know, Rabbath was the first person to introduce collapsed fingers as "correct". Since it is the easier of the two I think it will be questioned for a long time. Also, as @Don Kasper pointed out, if you can't do both it is not a choice.

 

[damonsmith]

That's exactly what I did...

And clearly, you are playing at a very high level. Here is a question: Do you think it is something people should just do or something people should adapt as part of studying Rabbath?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

That's exactly what I did...

Me too. But I prefer the sound of the finger pads to the tips.

 

[BassFalcon]

I just picked up Rabbath’s Art of the Left Hand, I’m interested to dig in to that and see what he has to say about this topic in his own words.